Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:08 am

econ21 wrote:The large packs that really stick in my mind are at the start of HoF


theckhd wrote:Also note that your threat will actually go down in all likelihood, because the 12.5k TPS per mob you gain is offset by the beastly healing threat of Battle Healer and SoI.


THIS!

and you don't mean by any chance the trashpacks that ignore the aggro table at the start of HoF and after a couple of seconds fixate on random players? ^^
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby econ21 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:25 am

Schroom wrote:you don't mean by any chance the trashpacks that ignore the aggro table at the start of HoF and after a couple of seconds fixate on random players? ^^


I guess those would be prime candidates for switching to SoR as aggro does not matter (after 2 secs)?

I was thinking more about the other packs that stun and do nasty ground effect things. They seem lethal to tanks in LFR: it's a rare LFR where a tank does NOT die before the 1st HoF boss is pulled. But when I first encountered them in 10N last week, they were far less intimidating. I guess it's a matter of cc and healing rather than seal choice.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Sagara » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:31 am

You mean the skullbashers I guess. They're nasty in the sense their big attack is very powerful, and in the chaos of LFR you tend to not notice it until you ate one.
I usually got out of my way to grab those and focus on their "ready" posture to get the hell out of dodge. Reminds me a bit of GW2, actually.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:06 am

econ21 wrote:
Schroom wrote:you don't mean by any chance the trashpacks that ignore the aggro table at the start of HoF and after a couple of seconds fixate on random players? ^^


I guess those would be prime candidates for switching to SoR as aggro does not matter (after 2 secs)?

I was thinking more about the other packs that stun and do nasty ground effect things. They seem lethal to tanks in LFR: it's a rare LFR where a tank does NOT die before the 1st HoF boss is pulled. But when I first encountered them in 10N last week, they were far less intimidating. I guess it's a matter of cc and healing rather than seal choice.

Likely more to do with the fact that when raiding in an organised group the healers are actually healing, and not AFK.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby econ21 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:59 am

Theck, I should post this on your blog but haven't figure out how to do so: about gear sets, I think what some comments were asking for is a "haste stacked" gear set that reflects gemming haste rather than stamina and having at most one stamina trinket (you could use the ghost iron dragonling as the other; it's low ilevel but a good way of getting effectively another 1800 haste if that's what is being stacked). You could look at Fetzie's gear if you want a real world illustration of the kind of haste stacked gear set I'm referring to.

From reading MMO-Champion, Tankspot and Ask Mr Robot forums, it seems that many people who have read your work on haste have really taken it to heart and are not persuaded by the attractions of stamina. (Instead, with the double cost of stamina in gems and the value of secondary stats for active mitigation, gemming stamina seems unpopular amongst many tanks of all classes). I know you don't agree with them, but I think that's what some of the comments were asking.

I don't think many people are that interested in a gear set that sacrifices expertise for haste - your results about hitting caps are widely accepted.

[Personally, I've been curious about the haste vs stamina trade off for a while. At my gear level (489), I think I could trade off about 50k health buffed for about 13% haste through gems and a trinket. I think it would give me about 5k more dps but am not sure about the survivability effects - how many more shotrs would I get? 13%? As a 10N raider, it might not matter much either way for me but I die often enough that I've been sticking with stamina.]
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:18 am

Don't forget that guilds progressing through the heroic content right now have at least ten items levels more of gear on every raider than guilds that finished the progressing weeks ago. I don't think anybody in our raid is under 490, and most are probably around 495 equipped. Upgrading a 489 item to 502 is the equivalent of a mixed stamina gem instead of a pure secondary gem, or a pure stamina gem instead of a mixed gem. So while a tank in 480 gear would need stamina gems to get to the EH health of a 490 geared tank to live through the fight comfortably, the 490 tank already has that EH on the gear and can look at stats like haste instead.

So far I have yet to find a fight that required more stamina than I have right now. And if I do, I can just swap the 480 haste gems for stamina (~23k life raid buffed) or mastery, and swap to a stamina trinket in the second trinket slot (~30k life raid buffed).
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:30 am

You're both missing the point, in general. Point for point, stamina is hands-down better for survivability than haste is. There's no question about that. When you say "I have enough stamina/EH," what you're really saying is "I have enough survivability. If you're stacking haste instead of Stamina, you're not doing it because you want more survivability. You're doing it because you want more DPS. The added survivability is just a bonus at that point.

Unless you really do think that you're stacking haste for survivability, in which case you're completely misguided. Haste is a pretty terrible survivability stat - stamina, hit, and expertise all outclass it by a mile. The only reason we choose it is that mastery and dodge/parry are just as terrible or worse at the moment, and it gives the added DPS as a nice fringe benefit.

Now, tell me again why it makes sense to run survivability simulations for a case where you're stacking haste for DPS? If you're already in "gear for DPS mode," how is a survivability simulation going to change your gearing strategy?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Sagara » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:42 am

Trying to rephrase here. What's basically hapenning is, we set a *cap* to how much Stamina we find acceptable, and then switch to the next best thing. Considering Hit and Expertise get capped as well, we move on to Haste. Right?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:36 am

Sagara wrote:Trying to rephrase here. What's basically hapenning is, we set a *cap* to how much Stamina we find acceptable, and then switch to the next best thing. Considering Hit and Expertise get capped as well, we move on to Haste. Right?

^ that

If I was in 480 gear instead of 498, I'd be using stamina gems. But I have enough stamina. I'm not dying unless I make a mistake (forget to hit GoAK for Tayak Assault2) or we are killing ourselves (idiot activates a Wind Bomb). Enrages, whether the hard sort or the soft sort, are what is stopping us killing things right now.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Kihra » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:56 am

What's interesting about this tier is that I felt I had enough survivability very early on, even in 25H content. Maybe that was a product of being able to VP-upgrade gear. Anyway, I cut away from Stamina gems very early in progression, i.e., at around 8/16H.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:19 am

I don't share that opinion, actually, but I think that that your target stamina depends a lot on your healers. The healing in a guild like Temerity is going to be very different from a 2-night-a-week guild. I still find myself wanting more stamina for Garalon, Lei Shi, etc.

That said, we're at 10/16 now, so maybe we're at about the point where that shift can start happening, and I just haven't seen it yet.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:47 am

Lei Shi is a boss I'll be swapping my JC gems and my 2nd trinket for. Given that the bit of the fight that matters doesn't let you generate Holy Power anyway.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Kihra » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:40 pm

Yeah, I'll concede that Lei Shi is horrific, and it's easy to feel like you never have enough Stamina for him. I switch to double Stamina trinkets for him, but I don't swap out my gems or anything. That's a fight that is very different on 25-man than 10-man though. I think it's much easier on 25-man, since tanks can ignore the Animated Protectors because you have so much CC. You also have many more external CDs available to help you survive.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:57 pm

And you're probably running three tanks anyway on 25 man, so the stacks are a total non-issue even on the larger 60% and 20% waves.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:00 pm

We run 4 tanks, but only two are ever on Lei Shi. The other two manage Scary Fog.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Treck » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:33 pm

Personally, ive always said Stamina for progress, haste for farm.
And especially true for Terrace, since Haste is pretty crap compared to Stamina on ALL fights in there.
Haste might be slightly more "benefitial" on some fights, with added dps and raidhealing without making much differance to survivability (altho what fight there except the aoe fights are even dangerous?)
But for all of terrace, Stamina clearly wins if you compare the two stats, and even tho haste shines on AoE fights, thats honestly where Stamina is great as well, due to you having more buffert with HP before you have to shieldslam, even if haste gives you more uptime, but uptime isnt all that matters.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:23 pm

What do you think, try dropping my haste gems for stamina? It would put me at ~6k haste down from 8, and add 2000 stamina (40k life unbuffed) to my health pool.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Treck » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:29 pm

During progress of Terrance heroic, yes definately, go all out stamina.

For the rest, I guess it depends a bit if you are doing 10man or 25man.
But in general, if you are dying, go more stamina, if you dont really die and rather do more dps and stuff, haste is fine, especially when you get comfortable with the fights.
I really dont play enough 10man to make the case, but Ive done it once (all on 10man hc except sha) and the general feel I got was that the healing requirement wasnt that bad (or we just had the perfect healing comp)
And I would be incluned to go haste earlier on 10man than 25man, and I can see why more people who do 10man prefer the haste way.

But in general the Stamina way of gearing seems pretty unused, but I think it has a lot to due with haste beeing more "fun" during farm, and atleast now that we have more than one real way to gear, people see others beeing "farm" geared, and assume thats just the way to go.
Not saying its wrong or anything, people gear the way they want and feel the most comfortable with.

I also feel there is a little bit different playstlyle when you are maxed out in Stamina or Haste, and the Stamina way of playing just suits me better as well.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby daishan » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:40 am

I was a little high on gear for almost all of my guilds 1st kills, so had much more base stam than world top tanks that cleared everything months back.

I think you can make a good case for gearing haste on Heroic Protectors.
With solo tanking it on 10 man I'll be top single target dps in P1 (from all the veng), to get through P1 nice and fast so the raid healing doesn't get to harsh I'm in the 2nd group to get the dps buff. Helps with raid healing as well, I do about 11 mill raid healing (Battle insight and lights hammer) to the healers 31 mil and 28 mil. During progress on the fight we had a few tank deaths in P2 while the corrupted water was up but once I got my cd timings right that wasn't much of an issue, was then mostly down to the raid dieing in P3 where Haste helps more with higher dps and more raid healing.

I'd agree that Stam is best for Tsulong cos if your healers get the day phase right berserk wont be a problem and if they get it wrong a few extra % raid dps from a haste geared tank isn't going to be enough. Having said that I just stuck with my haste set up, having our DK go dps and taunt the 3rd breath of each night phase. We had some tank deaths to derping with cd's or taunts non of which I think stam would of helped with, the few times I died to just melee attacks more stam would of been nice, but that was more down to the whole raid slacking on resetting stacks making it very hard for the healers.

Lei Shi was the only boss I went all out stam for during progress, then the actual kill was while I was still in haste gear cos we only had time for 2 pulls before the end of the raid. Turned out getting high scary fog stacks during Getaway was much more important than a stam geared tank, I was always tanking Protectors in the add phase.

Only had a few hours on the Sha, P1 tank dmg is a joke so i'll be going full haste gear and dps trinkets until we can get into P2, I'm guessing I'll be wanting more stam for P2 and dread thrash, will hopefully get a look at it tonight.

I don't know about other 10 man tanks but for myself what I most want from Thecks brilliant theory crafting is some kind of feel for how much survivability I'm sacrificing when I choose to gem haste instead of stam.
I don't imagine there is but if there was some kind of plateau or just flattening of the curve for haste at higher rating levels it would be nice to know that the survivability sacrifice we're making for dps is getting bigger, or maybe even getting smaller?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby paendamonium » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:20 pm

Weapon question: I don't have time for a set raiding schedule (and PUGs on my realm are almost nonexistent), so all my gear is LFR or valor. I just got the Sha-Touched tank weapon, and I'm trying to figure out if it is worth the valor points to upgrade it, or if it's something that will be cast aside for basically any ilvl 502 weapon from the Throne of Thunder. I know that according to the initial calculations, a LFR Kilrak with both the 500 str gem and the prismatic slot is superior to the heroic ilvl 502 weapon; however, I know the prismatic slot can be applied to any weapon, and how does it compare to an upgraded Kilrak?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:38 pm

Unfortunately, I don't have item upgrades supported in the code yet. As of right now, you can estimate where an upgraded Kil'rak will end up by using the LFR and normal-mode versions. For example, if the 496 version generates X DPS and the 483 version gives Y DPS, then upgrading it by 4 ilvls will give you roughly:

Y+(X-Y)*4/13

Similarly for a 2/2 upgrade, just replace the 4 with an 8.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby paendamonium » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:51 pm

That makes sense in terms of the item level. Is the prismatic slot worth basically the same dps increase on each weapon? I.e., if I calculate the Kil'rak upgraded +8 with the 500 str gem and it's lower than the 502, would I assume that the 502 with pristmatic haste gem is better than the Kil'rak +8 and +Gem and +haste?

For some reason I'm having D&D flashbacks.... gotta love my Kil'rak +8 shortsword....
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby daishan » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:49 am

Looks like they're going with a GC proc rate of 12% from "When you dodge or parry a melee attack, or hit with Crusader Strike or Hammer of the Righteous."
http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/85043-grand ... 6562-16577
Any idea how that works out for us?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:46 am

In what sense? I have survivability simulations done, but they're at home waiting to be written up. The MATLAB DPS code needs to be tweaked and run with the new coefficients yet, but it's not going to be a drastic change. Hit/Exp/Haste should all drop slightly relative to STR/AP/crit, but not by a lot (~7%, or 1-(1.12/1.2)).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby daishan » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:12 am

Was mostly meaning if it would move mastery or avoidance ahead of haste as survival stats, after re reading some posts on EJ and your blog it's looking like it'll still be haste :D
I'm just terribly impatient and want to see the numbers saying I can carry on been a haste whore (yes I know stam is better and I might have to re gem a little if the new 10 man bosses hit harder)
I look forward to seeing your results.
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