Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:31 pm

Yes and no. The default cycle takes 13.5 seconds without haste:
CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X

So provided we line up our HA cast with CS exactly, we get one full cycle plus CS-J-X within our 18-second window. In theory, any amount of haste would be enough to compress the rotation enough to include the next CS (i.e., 1 haste rating would be enough). It takes another 8.333% haste to fix the next X, another 8.3333% (16.67% total) to fit the next J, another 8.3333% (25% total) to get the next CS in, and so on. GC procs will make that noisier, but won't change the steady-state average.

So in theory, we get plateaus at <1%, 8.33%, 16.67%, 25%, 33.33%, etc.

In practice, there are a number of other factors that will blur that out a bit. The point in your cycle at which you cast HA matters a lot, for example - we've assumed you hit it exactly in conjunction with CS, but if you cast it half a second early that shifts the haste plateaus accordingly (they'll still be evenly spaced, but will happen at different numbers). Since human reaction time varies, it's fair to say that unless you're using an HA+CS macro to activate HA every time, it will blur the edges of the stepwise function fairly significantly.

And while it's "nonlinear" in the sense that it's a stepwise function, it's a stepwise function that approximates a linear function. So while your gains come in discrete chunks (before "blurring" effects), the overall scaling is linear (one way to think of it is that it's linear but rounded to the nearest GCD).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:50 pm

In 5.1, we’re migrating four additional procs over to the Real PPM system. Dancing Steel and Jade Spirit are 2 Real PPM, River's Song is 4 Real PPM, and Colossus is 6 Real PPM.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Lastwolf » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:19 am

That makes colossus an 800HPS absorb, before haste?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:23 am

Lastwolf wrote:That makes colossus an 800HPS absorb, before haste?


No idea... I am not the math genius, but that tidbit was pretty buried in a bunch of blue posts from the last few days, So I thought it was worth mentioning.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:00 am

It's an 8k absorb every 10 seconds (on average), so yes, about 800 HPS. Exact value will differ slightly due to probabilities, but that rough estimate should be close enough.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Nooska » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:03 am

800 HPS that scales with haste, from the previous explanation of RPPM.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:42 am

To be fair, he did say "before haste." :P

But yes, in our case it'll be 800*spell_haste absorption per second.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Nooska » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:43 am

I fail at reading today (also). :D
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Brokenone » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:16 am

With Valor Point upgrades coming soon in 5.1, can anyone run the numbers for which piece is best to upgrade? A mage in our guild found for mages that weapon > chest/legs/helm/trinket >> everything else. I suspect that will hold true for us as well, but it'd be nice to see some math backing it up. Here is his (rough) math:

nathanbp wrote:As everyone knows, coming in 5.1 is the ability to upgrade your raid items with Valor Points. Following is a consideration of the best items to upgrade. Specifically, how much better is it to upgrade a weapon than any other item?

Fire Mage T14N Scale Factors (from Simulationcraft):
Int 4.8
SP 3.46
Hit 3.44
Crit 2.83
Hast 2.29
Master 2.11

We'll consider Regail's Crackling Dagger (Normal). Upgrading by 8 item levels increases all stats by 8% (approx.). This gives
Int +36 (172.8 dps)
Mastery +27 (56.97 dps)
Crit +21 (59.43 dps)
Spellpower +561 (1941.06 dps)
Total: 2230.26 dps

As you can see, the majority of the dps gain comes from the additional spellpower. Compare this to upgrading Leggings of the Burning Scroll. 8 extra item levels only nets 709.6 dps. And it's only that high because the item slot multiplier for legs is 1. Upgrading Ring of Wretched Flames only nets 437.67 dps.

Upgrading trinkets looks to be about as good as upgrading pants/chest/helm (the 1.0 multiplier slots). Relic of Yu'lon +8 item levels is a 716 dps increase. Light of the Cosmos +8 is a 847 dps increase.

In conclusion, upgrading your weapon at is least 3 times as good as upgrading any other slot. For the maximum dps upgrade to help with progression, it likely makes sense to spend valor on upgrading your weapon, even if it is not BiS, assuming that it's the best weapon that will be available to you in the near term. Second in priority should be trinkets as they are likely to be your next best upgrade slot (and also since you have 2 trinket slots), however at some point it's better to just consider which items you have are BiS and upgrade those.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:33 am

It depends on what you're trying to increase. Helm/Chest/Legs all have itemization multipliers of 1 (everything else is lower), so you'll generally get more STR/STA and secondary stats by increasing one of those three. Trinkets are close behind in stamina, but generally not secondary stats. Everything else falls behind, relatively.

So I think the most logical approach is to figure out which of those three slots has the best itemization (i.e. use it on a hit/exp/haste/mastery item, not on one with dodge/parry) and boost that one.

I don't think the weapon slot will be as powerful for us. It may be the best raw DPS upgrade due to weapon damage, but I'd need to verify that to be sure because weapons have less than half of the STR/STA itemization of chests. So it may be that the extra 1k strength you get from upgrading a chest offsets or exceeds the boost from increased weapon damage, especially since the majority of our DPS is independent of weapon damage in the first place.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby daishan » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:10 am

Where would the shield come in that list do you think?
Low on stats but has a massive armour budget.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Brokenone » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:56 am

The shield makes me sad because it's dodge/parry. I think I'd rather upgrade a chest/helm/legs first.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Hespherus » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:03 am

Weapon should be first for us also. Might not be much, but if you are still progressing, more often than not i think, its gonna matter if you will be able to pull 1k more dps, then just having 70 more stamina + 50 strength and some secondary stats. I have no math to back that up, but i feel that tank dps matters a lot(10 man PoV).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:36 pm

daishan wrote:Where would the shield come in that list do you think?
Low on stats but has a massive armour budget.

Good question. Armor is a big stat for us, so shield might be a decent choice. I'll look at the math for that later.

Hespherus wrote:Weapon should be first for us also. Might not be much, but if you are still progressing, more often than not i think, its gonna matter if you will be able to pull 1k more dps, then just having 70 more stamina + 50 strength and some secondary stats. I have no math to back that up, but i feel that tank dps matters a lot(10 man PoV).

Except you might get more DPS from upgrading your chest, because weapon DPS is fairly weak for us compared to most other classes. Remember that the only thing in our arsenal that scales with weapon DPS is Crusader Strike, while everything scales with AP.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:09 pm

I'll probably be doing the chest, helmet or the legs first, as they have the biggest stat budget. As you said, depending on what stats are there. No real point wasting 1500 VP on a dodge/parry item.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Hespherus » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:28 am

theckhd wrote:Except you might get more DPS from upgrading your chest, because weapon DPS is fairly weak for us compared to most other classes. Remember that the only thing in our arsenal that scales with weapon DPS is Crusader Strike, while everything scales with AP.


I stand corrected then. I wouldve thought that the strength, stamina + secondary stats on top of that dps would prove to be a higher dps increase than chest/legs/helm.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:55 am

Hespherus wrote:
theckhd wrote:Except you might get more DPS from upgrading your chest, because weapon DPS is fairly weak for us compared to most other classes. Remember that the only thing in our arsenal that scales with weapon DPS is Crusader Strike, while everything scales with AP.


I stand corrected then. I wouldve thought that the strength, stamina + secondary stats on top of that dps would prove to be a higher dps increase than chest/legs/helm.


Going from the LFR Kilrak weapon at 483 item level to the normal version (496) you get:

89 Sta
60 Str
39 Mastery (0.22)
41 Hit (0.4%)

Upgrading a Breastplate of the King's Guard from LFR (476) to normal (489) you get

196 Sta
131 Str
76 Mastery (0.42)
232 Armor
94 Haste (0.73%)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Hespherus » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:41 am

How much more dps though?. Im not concerned with my survivability that much(i am hit/exp capped and 600k unbuffed though), i am concerned about killing stuff faster and doing my best to help that happening.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:31 am

Now that I have a few minutes, let's look at them directly. From the weapon comparison:
Code: Select all
|                                            |      |  cfg1 | cfg1 |  cfg2 | cfg2 |
| Weapon                                     | ilvl |   DPS |  HPS |   DPS |  HPS |
| Kilrak, Jaws of Terror (Raid Finder)       |  483 | 78251 |    0 | 85841 |    0 |
| Kilrak, Jaws of Terror                     |  496 | 78881 |    0 | 86405 |    0 |

Note that this is with SoT too, but that doesn't depend on weapon DPS and it's a small contribution. So you get about 630 DPS by upgrading Kilrak by 13 ilvls, or about 560 DPS if you're already at hit-cap. The actual value will be closer to the first value, assuming you're reforging for hit/exp caps.

Using Fetzie's numbers, you get 196 STA and 94 haste by upgrading the breastplate. Nothing else gives a DPS contribution. At 100k Vengeance, strength gives you about 1.31 DPS per point. The strength is going to give you about 257 DPS, and the haste about 172 DPS, for a total of 429 DPS from upgrading the chest. If the other secondary stat had been a DPS stat as well (ex: hit or exp), then we'd be effectively getting another 76 haste, for an additional 139 DPS, giving us 568. Not quite the match of the weapon upgrade, but awfully close.

So the weapon will probably edge out the chest/legs/helm slots for raw DPS. Especially on items that have reduced strength itemization.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby DisRuptive1 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:48 pm

Found this on MMO-Champion:

Enchantments using the Real PPM system will now generate two buffs simultaneously, rather than simply refreshing the duration of an existing effect.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:01 am

Certainly of relevance, though I don't know that it will change the results very much. Tlitp has been working on the enchant modeling code (I think), so this will probably complicate his job (more states to consider).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:27 am

I'm just wondering if those double buffs will stack, or it's just a cosmetic thing to make tracking the buffs easier.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:03 am

They stack. The change is a response to dual wield classes taking a nerf when they moved to RPPM and the buffs stopped stacking.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:41 am

Hi, I got a short question considering AP,
is this still true in MoP?

1 strength = 2 AP.
Autoattack scales like this: 14 AP = 1 DPS

also someone told me that 1 Strength = 0.9 parry rating

true or false and if false what are the right values? :)

is there a post explaining how the new vengeance works exactly? I wasn't able to find one :)

thank you very much in advance.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Hespherus » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:55 am

On the first page of this thread, and if im not mistaken and am interpreting those graphs correctly, 1 strength is roughly 1.3 dps. You get 13 dps from 10 strength.
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