A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby benebarba » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:49 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Edit: Chances of finding an isolated 85 dummy are pretty much nil, as the only level 85s are in Stormwind and Orgrimmar.


Yeah, I think someone's going to either have to get *really* lucky to get 20 minutes on an undisturbed 85 target dummy during the day, log in at like 3 am and hope for the same, or try to adapt to use a lvl 80 dummy that you can find in a less populated area.

If we're just looking for critical strikes to hit enough times... does crit chance change with target level relative to attacker?

Also, I'm seeing with a bunch of blue mail/leather ag gear (such as stuff from the links) that my spell and melee crit are identical. Is this expected?
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby tlitp » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:06 pm

Hmm, let's do this right. Before actually starting the crit test, let's make sure that things are "working as expected".

1. Take a level 85 Paladin (on beta, evidently).
2. Being naked, report race, Agility/Intellect, total physical/spell crit.
3. Equip several pieces of equipment that provide only crit rating (no Agility, no Intellect; 200 as the bare minimum). Report total physical/spell crit.
4. Equip several pieces of equipment that provide only Agility (ideally as much as possible; 300 as the bare minimum). Report total Agility, total physical/spell crit.
5. Redo #4 with Intellect. Report total Intellect, total physical/spell crit.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:33 am

Should be simple enough to do. The problem I noticed was in my full agi mail set I only had about 0.2% difference in spell and physical crit - I did check my base stats and it was 0.1% melee crit and 0.16% spell crit naked. Will edit in the full stats in a few minutes (also need to run back and buy a set of Int gear).

All done, turns out Agility is horrible for raising melee crit. I now have four different gear sets with weird mixes of cloth, leather, and mail. This gear vendor is a godsend for this stuff, though.

1) Level 85 Dwarf Paladin

2) Naked:
Agility: 93
Intellect: 105
Melee Crit: 0.01%
Spell crit: 0.16%

3) Crit only:
Crit Rating: 2164
Melee Crit: 12.08%
Spell Crit: 12.23%

4) Agility only:
Agility: 2652
Melee crit: 0.27%
Spell crit: 0.16%

5) Intellect only:
Intellect: 2978
Melee crit: 0.01%
Spell crit: 4.59%
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby tlitp » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:13 am

Right. That clears a few things.
1. The base phys/spell crit are both 0.
2. The crit rating->chance conversion is identical to live.
3. The Int->sp.crit conversion is identical to live.
4. The Agi->phys.crit conversion is b0rked. Big time.

The test must be adjusted accordingly. Below is a C/P, with the alterations in place.

  • Level : 85.
  • Weapon : Dalaran Sword (it must be DS, for the 1.4 "speed").
  • Gear : Anything loaded with Intellect. VP/JP gear, suitable trinkets, anything providing Int is fair game. Do not equip anything that provides crit rating (very important).
  • Buffs : Blessing of Kings. Keep it on for the entire duration of the first part (first ~20 mins).
  • Target : any level 85 dummy (the debuffs are irrelevant; it must be 85).
  • Attack sequence : AA (+SoI), J, attacking from behind.
  • Goal : at least 200-300 J casts (20-30 mins; see note #2). After reaching this number of J casts, continue to AA for another ~40 mins (to reach a total of 1h+). The last part can be AFK-ed at will.
  • Report weapon damage (alternatively, total AP), total physical/spell crit, upload the CL.

Note #1 : Mages/Warlocks do not apply the spell crit debuff anymore, thus hunting for isolated dummies is unnecessary. The rest of the debuffs are irrelevant for this test.

Note #2 : The exact number of the J casts depends on how much spell crit you can gather (without resorting to equipment with crit rating). We're talking about 200 casts at 9% spell crit, 250 at 7%, 300 at 6%, 350 at 5%.
Last edited by tlitp on Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:23 am

Easy enough with the gear I already put together. Will do it this afternoon after raid.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby tlitp » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:52 am

Reran the numbers. The fact that we must use spell crit (hence Int) and that base phys/spell crit are both 0 is fairly annoying. It's advisable to muster as much Int as possible, because that decreases the number of J casts (i.e. the active part of the test). See the post above, I've edited it for improved clarity.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby benebarba » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:08 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Should be simple enough to do. The problem I noticed was in my full agi mail set I only had about 0.2% difference in spell and physical crit - I did check my base stats and it was 0.1% melee crit and 0.16% spell crit naked. Will edit in the full stats in a few minutes (also need to run back and buy a set of Int gear).

All done, turns out Agility is horrible for raising melee crit. I now have four different gear sets with weird mixes of cloth, leather, and mail. This gear vendor is a godsend for this stuff, though.


Yep, I see precisely the same thing (Human paladin at 85).
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:13 am

Intellect: 3615
Crit rating: 0
Melee crit: 0.01%
Spell crit: 5.57%

Melee hits: 2299, crits: 1
Judgement hits: 518, crits: 37

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mx0g ... etails/33/
(Don't know an easy way to get rid of all the noise from other players using dummies, unfortunately)
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby benebarba » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:08 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Intellect: 3615
Crit rating: 0
Melee crit: 0.01%
Spell crit: 5.57%

Melee hits: 2299, crits: 1
Judgement hits: 518, crits: 37

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mx0g ... etails/33/
(Don't know an easy way to get rid of all the noise from other players using dummies, unfortunately)


depending on what tools you have available (like say something like the unix commands cat and grep), you may be able to copy only the entries which have your character's name in them into a separate file. I had to do that with one of mine.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:53 am

There's really no need, WoL can do almost all the filtering you'd care about natively.

<edit> Also, that test seems to confirm that J uses spell crit (~7% observed crit rate, 95% CI of ~2%).
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby tlitp » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:55 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Melee crit: 0.01%
Spell crit: 5.57%

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mx0g ... etails/33/

1. 147 glancing blows from 2565 autoattacks; the 95% CI is [0.0489,0.067], which includes the expected value (6%). In other words, GBs work as they do on live.
2. After some hardcore(-ish) log filtering, taking care of the two relevant debuffs (phys.vuln, weak.armor), I confirm that GBs (on a same-level target) work as they do on live, damage-wise. The damage range is still 90-99%, averaging at 95%.
3. 37 J crits from 555 casts; the 95% CI is [0.0485,0.0907]. The expected spell crit (5.57%) is within it, but the expected physical crit is well outside it. That settles it, J (and AS, most likely) follows both spell hit and spell crit.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:58 am

What build are we on right now, by the way?
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby benebarba » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:08 am

theckhd wrote:What build are we on right now, by the way?


15589 is what was showing up for me in version.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:35 am

Just realised I didn't give all the numbers requested - character sheet weapon damage was 103-143, attack power 589.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby benebarba » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:08 pm

I'm pinging a hunter guildie just in case on the pet/beast question. Another option may be to see if you can get in touch with someone from say WHU (like frostheim) to see if he's already mined the base armor data.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby tlitp » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:28 am

Hammer of Wrath is usable by Protection, starting from b15640. Before designing any test, I'd like to know if execute-type abilities (i.e. HoW) can be used on the boss-level dummies at all. If yes, testing HoW will be very straightforward. If not, we'll be forced to improvise.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby lakhesis » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:42 am

Not absolutely 100%, but 95% sure we can't. All the main city boss dummys I know of have 750 million HP at present, all the non-boss level dummies I know of have 1 (level 85s I saw prior to crashing) or 2 hp (the level 60s I was standing by).
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:49 am

Don't think I've seen a dummy reach low health since WotLK (it used to be not too difficult to take them down and keep them at 1HP).
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby tlitp » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:54 pm

It would have been too easy. Bleh. Anyway, the issues that must be addressed are :
1. Is HoW still a (ranged) physical attack ?
2. Can it be parried in 5.x ?

It seems like a good idea to tackle #2 first. If the answer is affirmative, then the first test becomes redundant. However, testing #2 is a royal pain in the arse. I think (i.e. I'm open to suggestions, if anyone comes up with a better design) that the best bet would be to duel a Blood DK.

Requirements :
1. A Ret Paladin. Must have the Sanctified Wrath talent. Must have 0 hit/exp; equipping Holy-oriented gear with a lot of haste would be excellent.
2. A Blood DK. Must have Rune of Swordshattering as runeforging option. Must use a tanking-oriented gear with a lot of Parry (preferably closer to 20% before RoS).

The methodology, step-by-step :
1. Find an isolated area/spot to reduce the noise from the CL and to avoid lagging.
2. Ask the DK the current value of Parry (character panel).
3. Initiate the duel (stay at distance, HoW will be the only source of damage).
4. The Paladin casts Avenging Wrath, then keeps queuing HoW GCD after GCD..
5. The DK casts Dancing Rune Weapon immediately after AW.
6. DRW ends.
7. The Paladin stops casting HoW, duel ends.
8. Upload the CL, report DK's Parry (pre-DRW).
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:29 am

Unless they've changed their behaviour in beta, the level 80 melee targets at the Argent Tournament grounds should still allow you to test execute range abilities. If someone has a 77ish paladin they ought to be able to test #2 fairly quickly.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby benebarba » Fri May 11, 2012 7:08 am

What's the status on required tests/datamining from the first page?
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Fri May 11, 2012 9:54 am

Everything still listed is still needed, though #1 is basically waiting on level 90 since there's no level 88-92 dummies to work with.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby benebarba » Sat May 19, 2012 4:10 pm

For the tests which are looking to see if an ability can trigger an enchant (such as 5 & 21) - would an older enchant such as landslide work? (I haven't logged into the beta recently to see what the new enchants are going for - I assume absurd amounts).
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Sun May 20, 2012 6:06 am

No, unless otherwise specified, it needs to be the new enchant. If you're on Lost Isles though, I can arrange to log on and either give you the cash you need (I transferred about a million gold over) or grind enchanting up until I can perform the enchant myself.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby benebarba » Sun May 20, 2012 8:31 am

theckhd wrote:No, unless otherwise specified, it needs to be the new enchant. If you're on Lost Isles though, I can arrange to log on and either give you the cash you need (I transferred about a million gold over) or grind enchanting up until I can perform the enchant myself.


I am, just haven't been on in a long while so don't think I have a weapon of sufficiently high level to be able to apply the enchant to (unless the lower bound goes down to 378), since I haven't leveled my character at all.
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