A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:32 pm

No, that's fine, I just need to know which weapon it was so I can try to fit the weapon-damage-based skills.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:37 pm

well, let me know if you need more tests, the best time to hit the lvl 85 dummies is between 6am and 8am CST -_-
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:50 am

There's definitely something wrong with some of the #28 data sets. In looking at the data for Judgement, Holy Wrath, Consecration, and SotR data, the third data set is definitely off. It consistently falls above the best fit by too large a margin. My guess is that the reported SP value is incorrect for that data set. If you look at the AP/SP ratio for each set:
Code: Select all
1    2.0000
2    1.9704
3    2.0372
4    2.0000
5    1.9997


1, 4, and 5 are all exactly a 2:1 ratio, as they should be. Set 2 is too low (meaning either SP is too high, or AP is too low). Set 3 is too high, likely meaning SP is too low. Oddly enough, if I try fits using AP, the last four data points line up very well, but the first one is off (too high). Which is sort of odd. Is there any way you can double-check the stats of the five gear sets you used?

With a large systematic error like that, I can't really trust the data to give me good estimates. I'm going to need more data sets, ideally spanning a larger range of SP. One data set should be taken naked with only a white weapon/shield, and it'd be ideal to have data sets every ~1000 SP between 0 and 10k-15k (whatever's reachable in beta-available gear). For J, Cons, HW, and SotR you really only need a couple casts, as the damage value is static (+/- 1 damage, which is insignificant). It's the other abilities that we need large sample sizes for, since they have a wide damage range.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:56 am

Lemme start working on new sets then.

I prefer to do things from scratch -- specially since I can't remember what gear I had on at the time.

what white shield would you recommend?
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:12 am

Any vendor shield is fine. The point was just that it wouldn't have stats on it. If I recall correctly, you need a shield equipped to cast SotR (and AS).

Under ideal circumstances, I'd like 3-5 casts of the static abilities (J, Cons, HW, SotR) and 100+ casts of the variable ones (CS, HotR, AS, Hammer of Wrath). Seal of Truth, melee, and Censure should have sufficient data automatically, so don't worry about counting them.

I'm not in a huge hurry for the data - I'm moving this weekend, so I'll be rather busy either way. Hence, I'd rather see you take data slowly and methodically (i.e. take one complete data set naked, post stats and data, then move on to the next test). It's critical that the AP/SP are reported properly, because an error there will taint the entire data set (like #3, I suspect). It's also important that the dummy doesn't have debuffs, though most of your tests were fine in that regard. I couldn't tell with the tests against the 85 dummy, because there were people hitting other level 85 dummies and the log wouldn't tell me which ones were which.

Actually, there might be a simple solution to that. Just observing the combat log, cast Judgment on an 85 dummy and then again on a level 93 dummy. If the damage is identical (or +/- 1), then there's no inherent spell damage reduction (which there shouldn't be - it was removed in Cata). If so, then you can just do all of the tests on the 93 dummy in one giant log file, if that's easier.

I'm not sure where the most isolated dummies would be for horde. I can usually do pretty well in Darnassus or Exodar, but I'm not sure whether Silvermoon is as empty. Are there dummies at the Echo Isles now?
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:39 am

I've only been able to find lvl 85 dummies in orgrimmar

but i just tested Judgement on a lvl 93 and a lvl 85 dummy and the difference is -/+ 1, as you said, so should I stick to lvl 93 dummies instead?
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:46 am

Yeah, given that information, 93 dummies can be used for everything. In fact, you could use any level dummy for the spell damage ones, it's only the weapon/physical damage ones (melee, CS, HotR) that absolutely have to be level 93 (because armor values change with dummy level).

I'm trying to get what I can out of the data sets you provided as we speak, using tweaked spellpower values (modifying the third one to be exactly half of the AP value). I think I've convinced myself that your Judgement data is consistent with the tooltip values (though again, a low- or zero-sp data point would help that a lot).

<edit> after some more testing, I think that the AP values from sets 2-4 are correct, but the SP values from 2 & 3 are off (as indicated by the ratios). In addition, both values from set 1 are wrong (both too high). If I fit vs. AP, values from sets 2-5 all fit very, very well with the tooltip formula for Judgment. But the first data point is always very low, and drags the intercept down. So far, I'm concluding that I can use sets 2-5 under the assumption that the AP data is correct, but I'll have to toss set 1 unless further data suggests it's correct.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:58 am

don't worry, I'm doing new sets -- just to verify things

Here is the first one.

Naked
Str 176
Agi 107
Sta 332
Int 117
AP 602
SP 301
Haste 0
Hit 0
Crit 5.01
Exp 0

The problem I had with the first set 1 was that I used an epic shield -- that's why it's out of whack
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#28 - naked.zip
(33.19 KiB) Downloaded 86 times
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:32 am

Code: Select all
         set #1   set #2  set #3  set #4
Str      1624     2953    4481    5931
Agi      107
Sta      3244     5675    8587    11365
Int      117   
AP       3498     6156    9212    12112
SP       1749     3078    4606    6056
Haste    0        0.76    3.07    3.07
Hit      0        0.62    0.62    1.97
Crit     5.36     5.36    6.30    7.31
Exp      2.55     3.89    3.89    3.89


I'll have more sets after the server reset.
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#28 - set 1.zip
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:43 am

Code: Select all
      set #5  set #6  set #7
Str   7580    8690    10566
Sta   15355   17365   
AP    15410   17630   21382
SP    7705    8815    10691
Haste 4.40    4.40
Hit   1.97    3.37
Crit  8.53    8.53
Exp   3.89    3.89

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#28 - set 5.zip
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:44 am

Set 6 and 7 data
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:10 pm

Data set for #29, using a rogue:
AGI: 3650
AP: 9562
crit: 25.92%
haste: 21.47% (plus procs from arrow of time and the hungerer)

~1.5 hours on a level 70 target dummy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ii5v ... details/0/
~2.5 hours on a level 85 target dummy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ijv9 ... etails/21/
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:11 pm

Thanks Klaud, I've entered all of the data in and am starting to fit it. So far the static abilities are fitting beautifully. I haven't started on the ones that depend on weapon damage yet, probably tomorrow or this evening.

Weapon was still a club, right?
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:15 pm

yes, club.

Let me know if you need granularity for the tests, the way I did it is that each set increments the pieces of gear by 2. So I start naked, then I add helm and neck, then next set is shoulders and cloak and so on -- let me know if you need odd number of pieces equipped just to verify and I'll get on that.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:38 pm

Are you sure you used a club for the first round of testing? Because something isn't adding up. For example, this time around, in set #7 with 21k AP, your CS is hitting for 4777-4780. In set #5 from a few weeks ago, with 19.8k AP, you were hitting for 10713-15790. Not only are the values much larger, but the range is much larger. I haven't had time yet to figure out what I expect from the formulas, but just looking at the data, something looks fishy.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:59 pm

A problem I had with the sets I submitted a while back is that I didn't use a white shield, I used an epic shield... The original request had them asking for club as your weapon, they didn't mention a white quality shield -- but I did use one for today's sets

It's possible I fucked up something on the previous sets -- or rather, it's almost certain -- considering I just logged in back to beta and verified that CS is giving me ~4778 damage

I'm thinking I probably equipped the epic pvp mace by accident

EDIT: Just went back and equipped the mace and the shield, and removed my str trinkets... I hit CS and almost matches the results of #5 from last week... I fail orz
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby tlitp » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:39 pm

Theck : Sure enough, we've got blocked criticals. Much to my own amusement, even blocked glancing blows (which weren't there in early beta, IIRC). At this point it seems they went with the easy route, simply injecting another roll for any event that happens to deal damage in the first place.


Yet another glorious example of misinformation. Gotta love the man. Hell, I wonder how many people still believe that parryhaste is gone "because GC said so". :lol:
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:47 am

Klaudandus wrote:It's possible I fucked up something on the previous sets -- or rather, it's almost certain -- considering I just logged in back to beta and verified that CS is giving me ~4778 damage

I'm thinking I probably equipped the epic pvp mace by accident

EDIT: Just went back and equipped the mace and the shield, and removed my str trinkets... I hit CS and almost matches the results of #5 from last week... I fail orz

That's fine, as long as the AP/SP values are correct. I'll just exclude the old results from my fits for weapon-damage-based abilities. The new ones should span the space well enough to give me good results.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:44 am

good, just let me know if you need anything else, and g'luck with the moving.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:29 am

Just checking in - I'm not dead, the move went well, and I'm hoping to get some time to finish up the spell coefficient calculations in the next day or two. I'm over halfway done, but haven't gotten to look at them since last Thursday. So far, all of the ones I've finished match the wowdb tooltips exactly, which was more or less expected.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:43 am

X-posted because it might be relevant
Q:SOTR hits for about 1/4th of what it hits for on live. CS/HOTR also hit for much, much less.

A:If you post approximate damage numbers for those attacks along with your character level and average ilevel (just the average is fine), we can compare them to our numbers.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... 430?page=1

Some reports have prot pallies doing about 60% of a Blood DK, and (apparently due to a bug) 22% of what brewmasters do it.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:30 pm

Your SotR data exactly matched the tooltip, 617+0.54*AP.
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:59 pm

theckhd wrote:Your SotR data exactly matched the tooltip, 617+0.54*AP.


Any idea why CS is hitting like a wet noodle?
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:09 pm

Not yet, I'm looking at that now. That was the ability I was working on when I had to pack up, and I didn't get a chance to work out the new armor reduction factor before I did that. I was hoping that would fix the discrepancy between data and tooltip.

<edit> but I can't seem to find level 93 armor values. I know I've seen them somewhere recently, but damned if I can find them now that I need them...
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Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:52 pm

Ok, can't find the armor data, but I can extrapolate based on the melee data. From the max melee swings, I can infer that the physical damage reduction factor [K/(A+K), where K is the armor coefficient tlitp found earlier (25050) and A is the target armor] is around 0.6545. Fitting the CS data with
y=0.6545*(a*x+1123)

gives me:
Code: Select all
General model:
     f(x) = 0.6545*(a*x+1123)
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
       a =       1.676  (1.648, 1.704)

Goodness of fit:
  SSE: 1.591e+004
  R-square: 0.9988
  Adjusted R-square: 0.9988
  RMSE: 47.67

which isn't too bad given that my 0.6545 is just a rough estimate. We expect the coefficient to be 1.6 based on the tooltip.
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