Is seal of insight really worth it?

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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Nèlya » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:51 am

I use SoI at all times. It isn't a problem with DPS players in my raid (not an hardcore raid). I thought threat was totally useless with vengeance, and in game my experience seems to confirm that. I just watch for misses at the start of a fight and use taunts as needed. On tank swaps if threat is not reset the 10% threat margin and 30% for range players quickly becomes enough margin to deal with missing strikes.

I have a question for the players who regulary swap seals; in what glyph set up do you do this ? I thought SoT was garbage without +10 expertise, and SoI without the glyph does not seems to be a good idea if you plan to use it a lot during a fight.

Do you use both glyphs ?

Would you put the talent points into improved damage seals without +10 exp glyph ?
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:11 am

I generally use only one seal glyph and one finisher glyph. My usual setup right now is HotR/SoT/WoG. When I was doing a lot more WoG-spamming, I used the SoI glyph. Now that WoG has a cooldown, it's arguable whether that 5% is worth it compared to getting more Grand Crusader procs and being able to comfortably fit a SotR or Inq in-between WoGs.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Nèlya » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:21 am

So it is +5% on WoGs and SoI ticks versus quality of life ?
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:10 am

It's only 5% on WoG. It has no effect on SoI procs. I suppose it might affect other direct heals (HL, FoL, etc.) but I've never tested them, and they're pretty much irrelevant for us anyway.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Nèlya » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:47 am

Ok so it is limited to WoG, holy radiance and helping my healers top me between the double strikes of Chimaeron.
I think I'm nearly done with this glyph, but I still wonder why I should want more threat except to please my ego :).
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Flex » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:11 am

Nèlya wrote:Ok so it is limited to WoG, holy radiance and helping my healers top me between the double strikes of Chimaeron.
I think I'm nearly done with this glyph, but I still wonder why I should want more threat except to please my ego :).


If your survival is not in doubt and you are doing everything right to reduce incoming DPS why not increase your DPS contribution?
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Aerron » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:41 am

Flex wrote:
Nèlya wrote:Ok so it is limited to WoG, holy radiance and helping my healers top me between the double strikes of Chimaeron.
I think I'm nearly done with this glyph, but I still wonder why I should want more threat except to please my ego :).


If your survival is not in doubt and you are doing everything right to reduce incoming DPS why not increase your DPS contribution?


This.

Survival is easy for me at this point. But a lot of encounters are based off of tight DPS races. Why not help my raid by trying to up my DPS instead of sitting on top of a full mana bar at all times?

Once I started switching seals (and using a few other dps enhancing tricks) instead of just sitting on SoI, I saw my dps go up by about 2k.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Loras » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:44 am

theckhd wrote:I generally use only one seal glyph and one finisher glyph. My usual setup right now is HotR/SoT/WoG. When I was doing a lot more WoG-spamming, I used the SoI glyph. Now that WoG has a cooldown, it's arguable whether that 5% is worth it compared to getting more Grand Crusader procs and being able to comfortably fit a SotR or Inq in-between WoGs.


Isn't it mostly common to use SoT in the first 30-ish seconds of the fight and then switch to SoI, though? And if so, what's the benefit of the SoT glyph if you use it only for 30 sec of the fight, while for the rest 3-4-5-10 min you use SoI and you get 5% increased WoGs every 20-30 sec for that whole duration? Doesn't seem logical to be using a threat glyph and not using the seal that's glyphed itself :P And in that case, ain't it better to glyph Shield Slam instead, provided you're using it throughout the whole fight, no matter what seal you are using? Or even the CS crit chance glyph.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby PsiVen » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:46 pm

I've found myself sticking with Truth almost universally lately; on some fights I definitely glyphed and used SoI/WoG exclusively, but 4.1 has killed that. If SoI didn't mean losing 10 expertise in a situation where I have a ~20% miss rate already, I might be tempted to use it a lot more often.

I'm a bit puzzled by the notion that SoI should often come in handy for mana regen as there are more efficient ways to manage that in most situations such as not casting Consecration with 0/2 HG, glyphing Ascetic Crusader, etc.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby theckhd » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:45 am

Loras wrote:Isn't it mostly common to use SoT in the first 30-ish seconds of the fight and then switch to SoI, though? And if so, what's the benefit of the SoT glyph if you use it only for 30 sec of the fight, while for the rest 3-4-5-10 min you use SoI and you get 5% increased WoGs every 20-30 sec for that whole duration? Doesn't seem logical to be using a threat glyph and not using the seal that's glyphed itself :P And in that case, ain't it better to glyph Shield Slam instead, provided you're using it throughout the whole fight, no matter what seal you are using? Or even the CS crit chance glyph.

It entirely depends on the fight. I've found myself switching back to SoI less and less frequently as well.

The logic is pretty simple. You use SoT when you need DPS or threat, and you use SoI when you want the weak self-healing it provides (or when extra threat/DPS doesn't help). Assume you have 2 Prime slots available, and you're deciding which glyphs to fill those with.

-SoT glyph increases your DPS significantly in "DPS mode," as it's the highest-DPS glyph available.
-SoI glyph increases your survivability by a small amount when you're in "survivability mode."
-WoG glyph increases your survivability by a larger amount when you're in "survivability mode."
-SotR glyph increases your DPS by about half that of the SoT glyph at all times.

Goal: simultaneously maximize your DPS in "DPS mode" and your survivability in "Survivability mode."
Solution: Use the glyph that gives you the biggest DPS gain in "DPS mode" and the glyph that gives you the biggest survivability gain in "Survivability mode." That combination is SoT/WoG.

If there's a fight where you never care about threat, or only use SoI, then sure, glyph SoI/WoG. That's why glyphs are easily swapped on the fly, after all. I've found that the extra expertise helps with add pick-up, which is usually one of my primary jobs. Not missing saves a healer from getting munched, which can prevent a wipe (or at least a wasted battle res). 5% extra healing on WoG generally doesn't make much difference.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Cocosavage » Mon May 02, 2011 7:29 am

What about tanking with seal of insight, with 8% hit and 26 expertise?

Cons: -3400 dps (according to Theck's MATLAB thread), -7.2% mitigation ( 960 (+8% hit) + 480 (+16 exp) =1440 rating points = 8% mastery=7.2% mitigation)

Pros: +2400 dps (according to Theck's MATLAB thread), +3000 hps (100% veng, according to Theck's MATLAB thread), one extra glyph (SoT is useless, SoI is useless too because we don't wog very often), two extra talents (seal of the pure is useless), more HoPo, smoother rotation, infinite mana.

In the worst scenario (150k unmitigated 100% physical incoming damage per second), the loss of mitigation is balanced by the self heal. A more realistic scenario is 85% physical/15% magical damage. In this case self healing is better. Self healing should also be increased due to 8% hit and 26 expertise.
The dps loss should be partially compensated by the extra glyph, the extra talents, and the HoPo generation?
Last edited by Cocosavage on Mon May 02, 2011 8:44 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby inthedrops » Mon May 02, 2011 7:59 am

For me this is a simple case of "Can SoI or WoG prevent my death" instead of "which is better based on the numbers".

3000 HPS doesn't mean much to me if I can't get it when I need it.

As soon as they announced the WoG change, I completely respecced and glyphed with the presumption that I'll never rely on it again. When the patch finally came out, I was already in a non WoG'ing mindset so the changeover was mostly painless for me.

If I could burst out heals that amount to a good chunk of my health when needed via WoG + SoI then I'd spec/glyph/play for it. But I can't, so I stopped bothering. Puny little heals from SoI and a once per 20 second heal from WoG just isn't worth the loss in threat/dps required to get the most from it.

It's also why I don't look at SoI as a healing tool. Only a mana tool.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby theckhd » Mon May 02, 2011 8:54 am

Cocosavage wrote:What about tanking with seal of insight, with 8% hit and 26 expertise?


There are a number of flaws in that reasoning.

-150k unmitigated damage is far from a worst-case scenario, especially considering most tanks would survive said burst if at full health.

-It's a bit naive to assume that 3k HPS offsets an average damage reduction of 3k DTPS. Tanks tend to die to burst, not average DTPS. During a burst, the mitigation can be a larger reduction in DTPS than average, while the SoI healing will still be roughly the same.

-SoI is 3k HPS under ideal circumstances (100% Veng, 0% overheal). In practical situations, much of it is wasted on overheal (either yours or your healers'). The actual effect in a burst scenario is that you'll get a few heal procs off during the burst window, providing 5-15k healing.

-The "extra" talent points are completely irrelevant, as they have to be spent in SotP or EG, neither of which add anything to DPS in this situation.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Chicken » Mon May 02, 2011 9:04 am

Cocosavage wrote:What about tanking with seal of insight, with 8% hit and 26 expertise?

Cons: -3400 dps (according to Theck's MATLAB thread), -7.2% mitigation ( 960 (+8% hit) + 480 (+16 exp) =1440 rating points = 8% mastery=7.2% mitigation)

Pros: +2400 dps (according to Theck's MATLAB thread), +3000 hps (100% veng, according to Theck's MATLAB thread), one extra glyph (SoT is useless, SoI is useless too because we don't wog very often), two extra talents (seal of the pure is useless), more HoPo, smoother rotation, infinite mana.

In the worst scenario (150k unmitigated 100% physical incoming damage per second), the loss of mitigation is balanced by the self heal. A more realistic scenario is 85% physical/15% magical damage. In this case self healing is better. Self healing should also be increased due to 8% hit and 26 expertise.
I think this is one of those cases where the math behind it won't match the live results. 3000 HPS for 7.2% avoidance sounds like an interesting trade to make on paper, but that's ignoring the human factor of the people playing your healers: Seal of Insight doesn't provide large enough healing bursts to counteract the "The tank's health is going down more often!" effect on your healers, meaning that it's going to result into higher mana spending on your healers as they'll see you taking 'large bursts' more often.

I personally wouldn't rely on Seal of Insight as a prime source of survivability; it is extremely good at ensuring you're topped off entirely and to provide you with more mana to work with, and it's glyph is useful in making Word of Glory more powerful. The fact that it's proc-based and each individual proc is a fairly small amount of healing means that even if it's healing potential were to dwarf Word of Glory by a large amount, Word of Glory remains more valuable due to the option of using it reactively, and it providing a fairly large burst of healing when done so.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Loras » Mon May 02, 2011 9:25 am

Well, I just find it strange, since pre-patch the general consensus on these boards has been "Threat is a joke, vengeance is OP" -> "The way to go is SoI + WoG spam, OP OP OP", then patch is announced, theories go in the direction of "SoI will become THE seal now since threat is still a joke and we lose half of our heals, so SoI SoI OP OP OP", and now I see the totally opposite thing. If threat was joke pre-patch, no reason to be a problem post-patch. And if threat is a joke, why not increase your survivability, even if it's just a tiny bit instead of the huge jump we had before? After all, isn't this 0.01% min-maxing that makes people use spreadsheets to balance dodge/parry ratio, isn't this kind of min-maxing the reason why people are putting 250 armor on cloak instead of the much cheaper 225 (and 25 armor is surely a joke)?
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