Is seal of insight really worth it?

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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Esoterick » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:53 pm

I see that makes a lot more sense, although the vengeance stacking sounds a little overstated :)
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:00 pm

Look again, I made a boo-boo. Was hitting the calculator a bit too fast. I had the equation wrote out correctly in my post, but missed a critical multiplication when I actually typed it into the calculator. :roll:
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby theckhd » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:59 pm

Jeremoot wrote:Okay, I'll bite. What's driving you away from the SoI939 approach with its superior healing?


Because EG is a threat talent now, essentially. So you have a choice between two threat talents, EG and SotP.

EG gives you a small amount of DPS (~40) when you're Wogging.
SotP gives you a large amount of DPS (~130) when you're using SoT.

When I need DPS or threat (i.e. the initial part of the fight, burn phases, etc) I'm switching to SoT. So SotP gives me on-demand threat in the portions of the fight when I need threat.

EG, on the other hand, gives me random bursts of threat during the portions of the fight where I need it least. It might win out for total damage done over an entire fight if you use SoI heavily, but that's about the only tangible benefit EG gives now.

In short, I'd rather have more threat when I need it than extra DPS that I don't care about.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Kelaan » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:40 am

Esoterick wrote:Firstly - the healing in a given window is extremely weak. It heals just under 1.5k every few seconds and I have never seen myself nor any other tank die by a margin of less than 15k which is considerably more than what the seal is capable of in a 5 second window.

Secondly - Not using Seal of truth(with it's respective glyph) means that you hinder holy power generation through taking an expertise hit. Delaying reach 3 holy power logically also means delaying the amount of time till you can use a 3 HoP WoG.


It depends a lot on the fight, and on your gear level as a tank. When you're starting heroics (or regular dungeons), the extra healing makes life a lot easier on your healer -- especially with the upcoming nerf to Word of Glory. This is important as often your healer is in starting gear too (or it was when we were first talking about it). Threat suffers a fair amount, but seal threat is only a small amount of damage (10%?).

As someone mentioned, I also use it when I want to have mana for things like holy radiance. I use it partly for the buffer of healing - it's basically one more HoT effect on you, and those are never bad -- and partly so that I can afford to drop Cons / Holy Radiance when necessary and never worry about mana.

In heroics, I now am geared enough that I'll just pop a cooldown and go in guns blazing with Seal of Truth and ShoR. I do the same on raid content, as starting threat is important. I sometimes change to SoI later if I feel I have a substantial threat lead, but do not often do so. When I was starting out, though, I used it a lot more, and my self-healing was substantial. (I don't need it as much now as my group mates are better geared.)
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Cascadian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:44 am

To the original question of whether SoI is really worth it, I would like to share my experience and ask if others have the same strategy.

I tried switching to SoI for tanking and it was not pretty on the pull. Very tough to hold threat in normal mode raids when you have DPS that are doing 15k-20k and likely burst damage at the start.
My health and mana were pegged at 100%, but it was a fight to keep agro on me at the start.

My normal pull is the high threat version tested here.
Divine Plea, Inquisition, Golemblood Potion + AW + Exorcism, Judgement, AS, then start the 939 rotation.

So instead I tried going with SoT to start the fight, then 30 seconds into it, once Vengearnce has been established, switching to SoI. That seemed to work fine. But the usefulness of this strategy is limited. Many of the raid bosses require tank swaps or phases where your vengeance drops significantly.

Switching back and forth multiple times between SoT and SoI is iffy. Too much room for error.
I would only use SoI in an encounter when I know I will have threat for the remainder of the fight.

1) Magmaw: has a threat reset after "point of vulnerability". So never change seals. Keep SoT
2) Omnitron: Threat remains on your two when they reactivate. So you could switch to SoI once you have threat on your 2nd boss.
3) Maloriak: If you are the Maloriak tank, you can switch to SoI after 30 seconds. If you are the add tank, you cannot. Stay on SoT.
4) Atramedes: Air phase will cause vengeance to drop. Should leave SoT on full time.
5) Chimaeron: Threat is not really an issue here. SoI is plausible and that extra healing could get you above 10,000 at a key moment.
6) Nefarion: Too many phases with agro changes. SoT full time.
7) Halfus: Depends if Slate is active and tank swaps are needed. If Slate is not active, the Halfus tank can switch to SoI.
8) Valiona: One tank can likely switch to SoI after threat established on Theralion.
9) Ascendant Council: Stay on SoT fulltime.
10) Cho'gall: Tank swaps, SoT fulltime.
11) Conclave of Wind: Tank swaps, SoT fulltime
12) Al'Akir: I don't know. No attempts here.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby warden » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:31 pm

I would argue that, as a counterpoint, many of the fights that require tank swaps are ideal for SoI usage, as they allow you to "piggyback" the other tank's threat unless there's a full reset. Just some thoughts on the list above:

(1) Magmaw: Our tanks (25H) do this a bit differently, and swap taunts right before the PoV. This way the tank threat lead is never lost. Depending on your tanking strat, SoI is viable after the first 30 seconds or so. Concur with your throughts for 10/10H.
(2) Omnitron: Concur
(3) Maloriak: Generally concur.
(4) Atramedes: Generally I see tanks with enough of a threat lead going into the air phase that no vengance after the air phase isn't an issue, although we do have to salv the occasional spriest or boomkin. Depends on your raid and its gear I guess.
(5) Chimaeron: Concur.
(6) Nef: I have to disagree here. I see SoT for the first 30 seconds for the Nef and Ony tanks being necessary, but after that, don't really see the issue with switching to SoI. No experience on the add kiting, so I can't really comment there, but I can't really picture frequent tank swaps/aggro changes on Nef himself. The couple times that I've tanked him and Ony its been SoI after 30 sec with no issues (I'm usually ret).
(7) Halfus: Generally I didn't have an issue with Vengance falling off, due to tanking a drake when I wasn't tanking Halfus; piggyback threat worked just fine when taunting, and when my co-tank took Halfus for the first taunt, I usually switched to SoI with no issues for the remainder of the fight (assumed all drakes active).
(8) Valiona: Concur
(9) Ascendant Council: Really depends on the mob you're on and your raid's strat, too much to discuss here for a list.
(10) Cho'gall: Tanks get to piggyback threat here as well. Even without vengance, you should have a huge lead when taunting off your co-tank. I see SoI as plausable here, aside from the first 30 sec or so. SoT definately needed if picking up adds.
(11) Conclave: I tank this every week, and never touch SoT. I think Ana uses it to start on Nezir, but by the time I take him from her, she's miles ahead of the dps. Granted, I think we have the advantage of again piggybacking threat since we're using 3 tanks for 25H. Its possible you might need SoT if you're only using 2.
(12) Al'Akir: Our warrior doesn't have threat issues, as he's able to get in and out pretty quickly with a warrior's mobility for the wind walls and wind blasts. Threat is a bit rougher for a pally, and might require more extended use of SoT due to lower "face time" with the boss. No significant threat dumps though.

Just some thoughts :)

Edit: Just looking at the list, it seems like 10 or 25 changes several of these fights a lot, particularly in regard to the number of tanks used and piggyback threat. Were you writing from more of a 10 or 25 perspective?
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Esoterick » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:32 pm

Firstly I would like to say I was unaware vengeance contributed towards SoI before making this thread. On fights where Vengeance stacks up high it is worth considering how much more healing you gain.

This has been my experience of the bosses. We have Halfus, Chimaeron, Magmaw, Maloriak and Atramedes down on heroic 10 man. All the rest are normal

1) Magmaw: has a threat reset after "point of vulnerability". So never change seals. Keep SoT
Yes definitely, I am solely on Magmaw in 10H. We cover at least 3 Mangles with hand of protection too so the healing gain is somwhat irrelevant.
2) Omnitron: Threat remains on your two when they reactivate. So you could switch to SoI once you have threat on your 2nd boss.
Once you have passed through your two guardians one time it is safe to use whatever seal you feel is best, on normal at least tank damage is only twice that of raid damage
3) Maloriak: If you are the Maloriak tank, you can switch to SoI after 30 seconds. If you are the add tank, you cannot. Stay on SoT.
I am always on adds so definitely need the threat, damage taken is also generally low if handled well.
4) Atramedes: Air phase will cause vengeance to drop. Should leave SoT on full time.
Vengeance dropping is somewhat of a concern, as are a couple of our best ranged DPS in the air phase. However it is still unlikely they will pull threat.
5) Chimaeron: Threat is not really an issue here. SoI is plausible and that extra healing could get you above 10,000 at a key moment.

I am generally on double attacks and every other feud. With a DPS warrior taking the breaks I find it best to generate as much threat as possible so he can. This was far less of an issue with a Ret Paladin or Unholy DK for one reason or another their threat was massively superior.
6) Nefarion: Too many phases with agro changes. SoT full time.
Don't really know the fight on heroic. On normal I just make sure I generate a good threat lead on Nef then it doesn't really matter what I do after that. I use SoI on the platforms after holy radiance to keep my mana in check.
7) Halfus: Depends if Slate is active and tank swaps are needed. If Slate is not active, the Halfus tank can switch to SoI.
Not sure if there is multiple ways of doing this. I take halfus first and use Hand of protection to drop my stacks, go back up to around 5 and then we switch and repeat. Threat tends to be fairly important till at least most of the drakes are out of the picture.
8) Valiona: One tank can likely switch to SoI after threat established on Theralion.
Yes most likely. We are in the process of learning it on heroic. Although I have in both difficulties tank damage is not really a major issue(but you could argue it helps your healers)
9) Ascendant Council: Stay on SoT fulltime.
Definitely. Particularly when they merge you want as much threat as possible.
10) Cho'gall: Tank swaps, SoT fulltime.
Agreed.
11) Conclave of Wind: Tank swaps, SoT fulltime
Probably not actually necessary. At least in normal, I can't honestly remember if there is a need to tank the daisies in heroic as I have only seen a couple of wipes on it.
12) Al'Akir: I don't know. No attempts here.
Threat is important at the start of the fight and also sometimes on the sparks in phase 2. The main cause of high damage is being knocked out of melee range which makes SoI somewhat a moot point on this fight.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Aerron » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:49 pm

warden wrote:I would argue that, as a counterpoint, many of the fights that require tank swaps are ideal for SoI usage, as they allow you to "piggyback" the other tank's threat unless there's a full reset.


This. Personally, I take the following approach. I start with SoT, and 939 as fast and as furious as I can for the threat lead then switch to SoI, build mana back up, then switch back to SoT.

A lot of these bosses are tauntable. I drop a taunt on Magmaw before the phase shift and don't worry about it anymore. On Atramedes, I've built up enough of a threat lead that Vengeance dropping in air phase isn't an issue. Cho'gall too, I'm piggybacking threat off the other tank after I taunt, there's no reason to not switch to SoI if my mana is low.

Never had a threat issue with any of these bosses. I also don't go in with the mindset of "this boss is a Seal X boss" but switch back and forth frequently.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby warden » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:03 pm

I think Esoterick's post (and its difference from mine) does a good job of showing the differences between the 10H (his) and 25H (mine) perspectives. Definately value added, thanks for chipping in :)
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Esoterick » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:06 pm

I am always a bit concerned with how the threat is displayed on Magmaw right as the head phase ends. It seems almost like the DPS threat drops right back, but this may just be down to reporting their threat from the head and causing the figures to look inflated. The heavy damage always occurs around the point Magmaw is about to lift you up and can be pretty easily covered by cooldowns and hand of protection once you know what to expect.

On Cho'gall it probably depends on how you do the fight. We use two tanks and rotate who does the adds, threat is definitely more of an issue on the adds although that said our DPS frequently are too heavy handed and have to stop to prevent the adds dying before they near the stairs.

Also I never have an issue with mana on raid bosses unless I use holy radiance(chimaeron and occassionally cho'gall) for Maloriak I have a second "AOE" build which negates any mana issues caused by using Consecration.

Warden you are correct there does seem to be some variation depending on whether you are doing an encounter on 10 or 25 - It can be frustrating when the only good videos reference 25 man and you can tell you have no option of using 3 tanks on maloriak for instance :)
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Aerron » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:13 pm

Esoterick wrote:Also I never have an issue with mana on raid bosses unless I use holy radiance(chimaeron and occassionally cho'gall) for Maloriak I have a second "AOE" build which negates any mana issues caused by using Consecration.


And that may be some of the difference I was getting at. I tend to pop HR quite often in my fights to help healers out. For example, I also pop HR on Magmaw's flame pillar, and occasionally when the group gathers for blackout on H&T.

Cho'gall adds can be tricky with aggro, but I generally switch back to SoT when I'm going to pick them up if I don't have it up already.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Esoterick » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:19 pm

Point taken. If mana does become an issue you switch to SoI no question. In fact I would go as far as saying it is the most(only) worthwhile minor glyph because you definitely do not want to be locked out of switching seals when you need mana ASAP.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Aerron » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:25 pm

Esoterick wrote:Point taken. If mana does become an issue you switch to SoI no question. In fact I would go as far as saying it is the most(only) worthwhile minor glyph because you definitely do not want to be locked out of switching seals when you need mana ASAP.


Exactly. My minors are Insight and Truth for switching, and Might as I try to always rebuff after a battle rez (I'm always on BoM duty.)
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Durability » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:00 pm

Prioritizing SOI doesn't mean it's all you ever use. There're plenty of fights/phases where the damage from SOV is useful, and EG doesn't do anything for survivability anymore anyhow.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Cascadian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:54 am

Aerron wrote:Never had a threat issue with any of these bosses. I also don't go in with the mindset of "this boss is a Seal X boss" but switch back and forth frequently.


I think with the nerf to WoG we are all going to have to do this.
After my experience tanking last night, the new 20 sec CD on WoG is very painful.
I felt squishy because I wasn't getting that absorb shield for 6 seconds.

I am certainly going to start experimenting more with Seal of Insight.
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