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Is seal of insight really worth it?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Brutalus » Mon May 02, 2011 9:37 am

Loras wrote:Well, I just find it strange, since pre-patch the general consensus on these boards has been "Threat is a joke, vengeance is OP" -> "The way to go is SoI + WoG spam, OP OP OP", then patch is announced, theories go in the direction of "SoI will become THE seal now since threat is still a joke and we lose half of our heals, so SoI SoI OP OP OP", and now I see the totally opposite thing. If threat was joke pre-patch, no reason to be a problem post-patch. And if threat is a joke, why not increase your survivability, even if it's just a tiny bit instead of the huge jump we had before? After all, isn't this 0.01% min-maxing that makes people use spreadsheets to balance dodge/parry ratio, isn't this kind of min-maxing the reason why people are putting 250 armor on cloak instead of the much cheaper 225 (and 25 armor is surely a joke)?


Because we're not talking about stopping using SoI so that we can go afk during encounters and do nothing else. Threat is certainly not the same as dps and this state of mind is that the extremely minor increase in passive survivability gained by using SoI, not even burst survivability, is not enough to offset the damage we would gain otherwise. There's a breakpoint somewhere, clearly, and for a lot of the survivability proponents the breakpoint has turned away from using SoI across the board since the WoG nerf means its strength is now somewhat lower.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby inthedrops » Mon May 02, 2011 9:42 am

Brutalus wrote:the extremely minor increase in passive survivability gained by using SoI, not even burst survivability, is not enough to offset the damage we would gain otherwise.


That says it pretty well for me I think.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Cocosavage » Mon May 02, 2011 10:18 am

150k dps of unmitigated physical damage gives roughly 35k dps of incoming physical damage. Correct?
I think it is a realistic scenario of big incoming damage.

It's the worst scenario I've been confronted to (halfus hm, tanking 2 drakes).

In general the magical portion of the damage is greater.

Overhealing is an issue, I agree.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Chicken » Mon May 02, 2011 10:27 am

Loras wrote:Well, I just find it strange, since pre-patch the general consensus on these boards has been "Threat is a joke, vengeance is OP" -> "The way to go is SoI + WoG spam, OP OP OP", then patch is announced, theories go in the direction of "SoI will become THE seal now since threat is still a joke and we lose half of our heals, so SoI SoI OP OP OP", and now I see the totally opposite thing. If threat was joke pre-patch, no reason to be a problem post-patch. And if threat is a joke, why not increase your survivability, even if it's just a tiny bit instead of the huge jump we had before? After all, isn't this 0.01% min-maxing that makes people use spreadsheets to balance dodge/parry ratio, isn't this kind of min-maxing the reason why people are putting 250 armor on cloak instead of the much cheaper 225 (and 25 armor is surely a joke)?
Just to clarify my own position further: Seal of Insight is worth using. It is a further survivability increase, it just happens to looks better on paper than it does on practice.

My response to Cocosavage (As well as the response of the others) was mostly to the option of using SoI to cover the survivability loss of gearing for higher amounts of hit/expertise. That's where on paper SoI with 100% Vengeance might provide 3k HPS, however doesn't mean it allows you to consistently survive an additional amount of time as if you are taking 3k less DPS (Though to be fair, neither does avoidance). That's not even only because of Vengeance, but also because actual incoming damage comes in large infrequent quantities rather than constant minor amounts, which does favor avoidance. Because of that if you are, for any reason, seeking a higher amount of threat or DPS it's the first thing you should consider dropping in favor of SoV. It's a much more malleable option than gearing away from survival stats is: you can much more easily swap glyphs and seals than you can swap gear and reforging.

I do realize where the idea comes from, since the high hit/expertise setup does help a lot with the initial threat before vengeance really gets going. It's just important to keep in mind that while SoI does help a bit countermanding the survival loss, it doesn't do so as well as you might expect it to purely from looking at the numbers.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby theckhd » Mon May 02, 2011 11:20 am

Cocosavage wrote:150k dps of unmitigated physical damage gives roughly 35k dps of incoming physical damage. Correct?
I think it is a realistic scenario of big incoming damage.


Apologies, I misread that as 150k damage, not DPS. That said, the point remains that looking at tank deaths in terms of steady, predictable DTPS and HPS is generally flawed methodology. That's simply not how tank deaths "work," as neither the damage nor self-healing is predictable or reliable. As such, 1 DTPS is rarely directly comparable to 1 SHPS.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby theckhd » Mon May 02, 2011 2:30 pm

Loras wrote:Well, I just find it strange, since pre-patch the general consensus on these boards has been "Threat is a joke, vengeance is OP" -> "The way to go is SoI + WoG spam, OP OP OP", then patch is announced, theories go in the direction of "SoI will become THE seal now since threat is still a joke and we lose half of our heals, so SoI SoI OP OP OP", and now I see the totally opposite thing. If threat was joke pre-patch, no reason to be a problem post-patch. And if threat is a joke, why not increase your survivability, even if it's just a tiny bit instead of the huge jump we had before? After all, isn't this 0.01% min-maxing that makes people use spreadsheets to balance dodge/parry ratio, isn't this kind of min-maxing the reason why people are putting 250 armor on cloak instead of the much cheaper 225 (and 25 armor is surely a joke)?


I think you'll find that the "general consensus" is anything but. Threat is still fairly trivial with full Vengeance, but DPS scaling has made the first 30 seconds far more dangerous than before. Can you still hold aggro with SoI during that period? Certainly, at least with appropriate and liberal use of TotT and MD, but it's much more difficult. And cross your fingers that you don't get a "bad" avoidance streak that prevents Vengeance from stacking early.

SoI has always been a little overrated in terms of survivability, frankly. It's a nice source of healing, but in a raid environment its effect is very, very small. In most cases, it just translates into overhealing - either because you're at full health, or because a healer was going to top you off anyway, turning some portion of his heal into overheal. The cases where it presents a strong advantage are rare - whenever it would have saved you from a <5k overkill death, for example. A more persuasive argument can be made for using it to counter periodic or predictable damage intake, such as during Nezir's ultimate, Nef phase 2, or Chimaeron.

I'm not sure who you've been reading that said that WoG's new cooldown suddenly made SoI overpowered, but it certainly wasn't me. Nor, I would guess, is it anyone who's given the topic much serious thought. SoI is much the same as it was pre-4.1: a useful tool that we can and should use in certain situations. It's not the only seal you'll ever need on your bars.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Arianne » Mon May 16, 2011 1:29 pm

I look at SoI as a Quality of Life measure. My using SoI increases the QoL of the healers because they can use their efficient heal more often, but decreases my QoL because I have to work harder to keep threat. Since Holy Pallies use DL most of the time anyway due to their mechanics, enabling them to use HL doesn't really increase their QoL, so I almost never use SoI (only if I need mana).

In addition, I'm the add tank for most fights, so in general I'd end up spending a lot of time switching seals and if I happened to forget to switch back then I'd be even more screwed on threat than I am now.

Therefore SoI is pretty worthless IMO. I use it on Chimaeron and the Nef adds in phase 3 and that's pretty much it. Seal swapping is a niggly boring menial task that sucks up GCDs as badly as missing ShoR twice in a row. I really dislike people that overstate how important it is and I really hope that Blizzard isn't nerfing HS because of people using SoI to tank.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Awyndel » Fri May 20, 2011 11:52 am

Using SoL would cost me 20% of my dps. I tried it a couple of times. I regret those times.

Mind you I am very heavy survival oriented. But there is such a thing as oppertunity cost.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Meloree » Fri May 20, 2011 1:12 pm

Awyndel wrote:Using SoL would cost me 20% of my dps. I tried it a couple of times. I regret those times.

Mind you I am very heavy survival oriented. But there is such a thing as oppertunity cost.


I use SoI in lots of places. I use it on Nezir in Conclave, because there aren't any DPS there most of the time, and they threat-reset by leaving the platform, so why not?

I use it when tanking Whelps on Sinestra, because I don't want to accidentally hurt them too badly, so why not?

I use it when I'm offtanking the last add or three at Magmaw, during P2, because nobody is going to be hitting them, so why not?

I use it in P3 of Nefarian (well I used to, I got lazy), both when kiting adds and when tanking Nef. If I'm tanking Nef, threat is a nonisssue because of MC agro resets, and on adds one HotR will hold them off healers for the nearside of forever.

Is SoI gamebreaking? Rarely - possibly never. Are there times when it's just a better choice for whatever reason? Yeah, I think so. Times when you won't notice the DPS loss from SoT, but any amount of survivability will help - that's when it's time to think about SoI.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Treck » Fri May 20, 2011 2:24 pm

I would still avoid using it on fights like conclave/nefarian/sinestra.
Mainly since while threat doesnt allways matter, dps most of the time do.
Compared to the very minimal healing you get from SoI, with the minimal dps differance with SoT.
Tbh if you think in those lines, most bosses threat becomes meaningless once you have full vengeance stacks and if you really want to push survivability with SoI, you will still keep threat with it.

Threat isnt an issue on nefarian if you can keep it for the first half of the fight.
On conclave threat isnt really a problem, but it is a thing tbh.
When you jump over, most of the times the threat from the boss will reset since the tank tanking on that side jumped aswell (if your lucky and jumped slightly before the other tank you might be able to taunt off him before it actually reset)
You still have to make some threat, if your jumping to the frost one for its powerup, theres going to be dps there, and everyone starts off new on threat.
If your jumping to the life platform, there shouldnt really be many people there, but if someone missed the jump you might need a bit of threat (prolly will do fine without SoT, but the exp from the glyph is the real gain imo)

On sinestra it depends a lot of how you tanking it.
Personally i take 2 sets of adds, the drake, then sinestra, then 4-5 waves of adds before the boss dies.
This is the one and only fight i swap to SoI.
But, thats only after ive picked up the 3rd wave of whelps in p3, at that point all dps on the adds stop, and im the only one hitting them.
This for a couple of reasons, but mainly, none is dpsing them, so threat isnt an issue.
But also the way the adds work, if you were tanking one boss, you would have a few big hits, then most likely beeing topped up before SoI actually heals you.
During P3 healers have infinite mana and so much haste healing isnt a problem (and if it is, SoI wont do shit)
So, during the buff if your dying SoI or not, you would still die.
Once the buff fades, many whelps give you many hits all the time, without the haste and no mana issues healers arnt going to top you up 2x each sec, and your never really going to be at 100% hp anymore for that fight (sure your going to be topped up, but 1/10th of a sec later your going to be a few hp from topped up again).
Thus most SoI "proccs" at that point will be effective healing (even if that most of the time means healers will do the overhealing instead).
SoI/SoT wont make much of a differance when picking up adds, except if your hammer is dodged/parried cuz of low expertise, its definately doable with both.
Like i said, thats the only point i swap to SoI.
You could obviously say the same for a few other bosses, like magmaw adds OTing while the raid kills the boss is a good example, it wont make a hell of a lot of differance, but why not.
But i dont agree on the other fights, like i stated earlier.

Its obviously up to each and every one to use it however work best for them.
I just dont care that much since it makes such a little differance.
I got glyphs i "could" change for each and every fight to make 50 times the differance as swapping seal, but i simply dont do it cuz even that, wont make a real differance.
(obviously a lot different during progress, but i also dont think the kind of progress im doing is going to work out the same way for guilds doing it so much later)
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Meloree » Fri May 20, 2011 3:36 pm

Like I said - when tanking whelps at Sinestra :P

I tend to think along the lines of "When it's a DPS target, even 2k DPS can help. When it's not a DPS target, why not heal? Even a little bit helps more than DPS that's meaningless".

Nef P3 was largely because in progression our healers liked to all decide to crossheal the raid at the same time and let me get dangerously low, 5k here and there helped a lot. That problem went away, but my habit didn't.

Conclave I tank Nazir alone with a healer for the entire not-ultimate time, so SoI helps.

It's a tool in the toolbox, that's all I'm saying. Sometimes you need a hammer, sometimes you need a wrench.
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Re: Is seal of insight really worth it?

Postby Awyndel » Sat May 21, 2011 3:45 am

Well yeah, if threat doesn't matter, I think dps does, I still use SoT.

I do swap to SoL when I'm tanking something that doesn't need to die. That's a good point ofc.
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