I've hit 102.4%.

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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Cascadian » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:42 pm

baff wrote:
Cascadian wrote:And at the same time the Mirror is helping you reach the block cap.
So stacking stamina on Nefarion is just plain wrong if anyone tells us that Stamina is better on magic fights.


Stacking stamina is the right thing to do on a magic fight, the on use of the TB trinket is the reason you want it for those type of fights - has nothing to do with the mastery. Your statement makes it sound like stamina is in fact not the way to go for magic, which I think is a wrong statement, before taking other factors into account.


I would disagree with you. The Mirror with +321 Mastery full time 'on equip' is great.
I consider that more valuable than the Symbiotic Worm providing +963 Mastery for only 10 seconds when below 35% Health.

For a fight with heavy magic damage, if I had to choose between the Mirror (Mastery + Resistance 'on use') vs Symbiotic Worm (Stamina + Mastery proc), then I would choose the Mirror every time.

For a fight with heavy physical damage, I would also choose the Mirror vs Symbiotic Worm. Because every single raid boss in tier 11 has some magical damage that I can use the Mirror on for the resistance also.

The Mirror of Broken Images is simply amazing and the best all around trinket available to us.
The only question in my mind is whether I pick Vial or Worm as my 2nd trinket.
I am going with Vial because I like to be able to pick the 20 seconds to boost my dodge. (My turn to tank Halfus, final 20% on Chimaeron, my turn on Cho'gall, tanking adds on Maloriak, etc.)

I simply cannot think of any fight that is pure magic random damage.
That is the scenario that would justify stacking Stamina, random magic damage that I cannot anticipate.
Which fight has that in the current tier 11 raids?
Are there any? I cannot think of any.

If the magical damage is predictable, an ability that we know is coming, is there any reason to stack stamina? I would say the answer is NO. If I know it is coming and it lasts only 10 seconds or less, then it makes more sense to use my CDs (Mirror, glyped Divine Protection, GoAK, Ardent Defender). If it is really heavy magical damage, macro 2 of the CDs together. Mirror + glyped DP = ignore magical damage on a 1 minuted CD.

Every raid boss has physical damage that cannot be ignored. So the value of Mastery is going to be needed, so the Mirror is great to have equipped full time.

Our only decision is to ask on each boss, "How much magical damage is coming? Is it random or predicable?"
Then ask yourself, is it coming so fast that my CDs might be offline when it hits?
I cannot think of a fight that meets that circumstance right now.
Are there any in heroic mode raids?

If if the answer is Yes, then there would have to be a calculation as to whether the magical damage outweighs the physical damage? Is the magical damage so high that I want to risk making myself more vulnerable to the physical damage of that encounter?

Thanks
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Meloree » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:11 pm

10 vs 25 and heroic vs non-heroic are important distinctions in gearing right now.

It's almost axiomatic that 10s will, in general, weight stamina as less valuable than 25s, and that non-heroics will weight stamina with less value than heroics. One can couple those two together, and state that stamina is at it's most valuable in 25H content, and of lesser value in any other form of content. The blanket statements that people make about mastery without that context are becoming a little bit overblown.

Is the Mirror a great trinket? Yes. But let's not get too in love with it - the clicky is almost exactly as effective as the trinket from Sindragosa - both will increase your minimum resist to the same level, given resist/mastery elixirs (which you should probably be using on any fight where the clicky is important), and minimum guaranteed resist is really all that counts in most situations. So, at that point it's just down to how you value stamina as compared to mastery. And that depends on the content you're doing.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Boyfriend » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:37 am

Mastery vs. Stamina is hardly only about Magic damage vs. Physical damage, especially once we're talking about block capping.

For tanking any hard hitting boss block cap is invaluable, I'd say as long as the damage difference between a single blocked and a single unblocked hit is bigger than the stamina cost to reach block cap you always want to block cap. Maintanking most heroic bosses (pre-nerfs on some) this is the case.

Case in point is my guilds Sinestra progress, where my not-block capped co-tank ended up dying to 100k unblocked melee + breath + wrack several times. Something which is well worth 10k health loss for block cap, since a 59k hit instead of a 100k just gave you another 41k buffer, and I can't remember a single tank death through entire cataclysm heroic progression that was not caused by either an unblocked hit or significant error in play.

On the other hand tanking whelps, or adds on Nefarian is somewhere where block capping seems pointless, the difference between occasionally taking another 8k or so extra melee damage due to an unblocked hit is entirely insignificant. I'd say stamina is probably better for both sinestra or nefarian add duty, apart from the obvious mirror, simply because the slight reduction in the very consistent damage you take will hardly ever make a difference, and stamina will give you more TTL in case someone screws up, though the benefits will be extremely marginal.

Of course until it's about actually block capping, this doesn't matter as much, and honestly I think mastery vs. stamina is practically irrelevant unless you are going to block cap vs. a hard hitting boss.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby baff » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:14 pm

@ cascadian:

My statement was in reference to your previous statement, which implied that stacking stamina as a general rule for fights with magic damage is a wrong.

In fact, I added that the reason one would want to use the TB trinket in magic sensitive fights is is due to its on use, and not related to the stamina. If it had dodge instead of mastery would you not use it then? How about crit? I know I would for many fights, and in my general mindset of gearing towards fight it would be a consideration. Indeed, for hardmode nef we had the entire raid get the trinket because of its on use mechanics.

I did not want to enter a discussion of "which of the following trinkets is better for a specific fight?". That wasn't the point at all. The entire point is that when we start with the basic thinking needed for gearing towards a specific fight, if the fight is magic sensitive (which in my mind means the magic hit will kill you if not countered appropriately) then first of all you want to stack stamina. This is before taking other factors into account.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Dravan » Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:05 am

I really can't think of a fight yet where a large health pool is any advantage over having block cap and smart use of CD's. I know the healers in my guild find it very noticable when I am not tanking, and complained when I started dropping mastery for stamina that I was harder to heal. I gem full mastery and swap trinkets when needed and raid buffed I am never below 180K hp (ilvl 363). I saw someone mention mangle earlier as making lower health pools dangerous, if you consider an ability that has a timer and doesn't hit you more than twice in a fight a dangerous thing to drop HP for I would question whether you are using your CD's effectively. Maybe there is a 10 to 25 man difference here and its something I haven't experienced. I have yet to see the later heroics (currently 5/13) and if I come to a fight where I have to change my mentality then so be it, but for anyone hitting heroics for the first time I would strongly recommend not worrying about your healthpool.

If you are effectively using cooldowns and still die, in my experience its an unblocked attack or you didn't get healed, not because you had 10K hp too little.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby PsiVen » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:31 pm

Again, if you have 180k health, you are not block capping. Using a lot of mastery is very different from using the maximum possible amount of mastery.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Rdx » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:45 am

How exactly did you get to 102.4% Using this gear set (http://chardev.org/?profile=106986) I was not able to hit. If you forget that dodge and parry DR and factor in the bosses chance to miss you I only come out to 101%~... Thats with food, elixir and assuming that you want to maximize mastery at all costs other than 4pc.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby 0zymandias » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:14 pm

Part of the problem is you've prioritized item level over better CTC gear. Try swapping out Ring of the Battle Anthem for the Fail-o-tron Nut and Wrap of the Great Turtle for Ironstar's. Also don't forget Battle Shout/Horn of Winter/Strength of Earth/Roar of Courage and Kings/Mark. Then you could make the gems not 100% mastery and still remain over 102.4 easy.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Awyndel » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:38 pm

What a lot of ppl don't realise when it comes to the block cap, is that avoidance is too expensive, and directly translates into a health loss. Also mastery above the cap is usefull, since it will let you gem more stamina. You need to give up on the 4 set, and avoidance, pretty much all together to come out of this with decent health. Being tauren is also advised. It's pretty much mastery/stamina all the way, also for professions.

Secondly I see a lot of ppl talking about the amount of magic damage in a fight. It's about the amount of magic damage in a spike that will kill you. So a spike you cannot prepare for, or can't prepare for safely enough. You will see that most of these spikes, will have such a large physical component, that block capping would still give you the highest EH for the encounter. And also the best mitigation for slow death, since resist gear doesn't exist.

The spike would need to be more then 50% magic damage, for it not to be worth it. In those fights you can often swap trinkets to make ends meet, or the even better option, assign another tank to the task. And make sure you have a tank in raid who gears for more health.

So is it the best? Do we need it? Hard to say, but it's viable in most situations if it suits your play style. It suits my play style, and those I raid with. I guess it depends on your situation.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Boyfriend » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:05 am

Rdx wrote:How exactly did you get to 102.4% Using this gear set (http://chardev.org/?profile=106986) I was not able to hit. If you forget that dodge and parry DR and factor in the bosses chance to miss you I only come out to 101%~... Thats with food, elixir and assuming that you want to maximize mastery at all costs other than 4pc.


I think you forgot raidbuffs, +agility/str buff provides quite a bit of avoidance.

With raidbuffs that set is at 100.1 excluding miss chance, so you'd be well over block cap.

Also Tia's grace provides far more avoidance than impatience of youth.

You're also using a cloak that doesn't exist, Maloriak heroic cloak provides both more avoidance and actually exists.

It is not difficult to hit block cap using 2x avoidance trinkets (mirror + grace in practice as there's no other worthwhile ones) , and you can gem either stamina without 4set or use 4 set with some mastery gemming to get there.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Awyndel » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:57 am

If you're going for the block cap, and you have some gems/trinkets you can turn into stamina, then the ctc/stamina ratio should not be forgotton. You can't just deck yourself out in 372 gear. If the 359 item has mastery/avoid then a dodge/hit 372 item will actually net you LESS EH when you block cap, that's including the armor from ilvl. Unless you're comfortable dropping your health for a little bif of avoidance, but on that health level, I would be really amazed if you did. Imo the only reason to pick up a non mastery item in a block cap set, is to get the 4 set, and that's a personal choice.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Kihra » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:08 am

Cascadian wrote:I simply cannot think of any fight that is pure magic random damage.
That is the scenario that would justify stacking Stamina, random magic damage that I cannot anticipate.
Which fight has that in the current tier 11 raids?
Are there any? I cannot think of any.


Sinestra whelp tanking is (in my opinion) a place where stacking Stamina is superior. The melee hits from the whelps are tiny, but they also attack regularly with Twilight Spit (shadow damage), and that damage increases as your spit stacks climb. Then of course you can also end up holding a Wrack with spit stacks and are also eating Flame Breaths at regular intervals. Even with magic cooldowns like Mirror and Divine Protection covering the Flame Breaths, the Wrack and the Spit both constitute quite a bit of magic damage.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:57 am

Kihra wrote:Sinestra whelp tanking is (in my opinion) a place where stacking Stamina is superior. The melee hits from the whelps are tiny, but they also attack regularly with Twilight Spit (shadow damage), and that damage increases as your spit stacks climb. Then of course you can also end up holding a Wrack with spit stacks and are also eating Flame Breaths at regular intervals. Even with magic cooldowns like Mirror and Divine Protection covering the Flame Breaths, the Wrack and the Spit both constitute quite a bit of magic damage.


I generally agree, but I think the difference between stacking stamina and mastery on whelps is not very big, even though stamina is undoubtably superior, the ~7k extra health you gain from switching one avoidance trinket to a stamina trinket is not that much considering periods of heavy magic damage are sort of predictable.

On the other hand if you're tanking sinestra even once, block capping is superior since she hits hard enough that if you're not block capped there are very big unpredictable spikes.
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby inthedrops » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:09 am

Boyfriend wrote:
Kihra wrote:Sinestra whelp tanking is (in my opinion) a place where stacking Stamina is superior. The melee hits from the whelps are tiny, but they also attack regularly with Twilight Spit (shadow damage), and that damage increases as your spit stacks climb. Then of course you can also end up holding a Wrack with spit stacks and are also eating Flame Breaths at regular intervals. Even with magic cooldowns like Mirror and Divine Protection covering the Flame Breaths, the Wrack and the Spit both constitute quite a bit of magic damage.


I generally agree, but I think the difference between stacking stamina and mastery on whelps is not very big, even though stamina is undoubtably superior, the ~7k extra health you gain from switching one avoidance trinket to a stamina trinket is not that much considering periods of heavy magic damage are sort of predictable.

On the other hand if you're tanking sinestra even once, block capping is superior since she hits hard enough that if you're not block capped there are very big unpredictable spikes.


I WISH I could tank Sinestra most of the fight. But I don't. She hits for 100k! 40% reduction is HUUUUUUGGGE. WTB two Paladin tanks :)
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Re: I've hit 102.4%.

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:27 am

I swapped with out other tank on whelps since d we were AoEing whelps down at the boss for their second death, so switching tanks wasn't a problem and bubble/LoH was available when needed. So I ended up tanking whelps in P1, first 10 in P3 and last 10 in P3 with other tanks doing whelps 21-30 of P3. And even though I only tanked Sinestra for 1 min 30 lack of block cap was very noticeable while I hardly noticed difference of stamina or mastery on the whelps.
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