Tanks as dps.

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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby econ21 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:01 am

Maybe it is different with raid bosses, due to vengeance, but I find changing gear - e.g. to be hit and expertise capped - has little effect on my dps during 5 mans. It's not like the end of wotlk, when a gear change could make me competitive with good dps. After dying once while wearing threat rather than survival gear, I gave up experimenting: it did not seem worth the risk.

For example, last night, I accidentally tanked the Love is in the Air boss with my PvP gear. It was full ret, gemmed for strength plus DMC:H. So when I realised my error afterwards, I looked at recount expecting to see a pleasingly high number. But I was only just below 6k dps. That may have been partly because I was flailing around a little, being unfamiliar with tactics (drinking potions etc), and it may be a fight where our dps is not great anyway (I ended up chasing the boss a fair bit) but still it seemed low.

On the plus side, the DMC:H did do a very significant proportion of my damage (maybe 3rd or 4th in the list on recount) - so I would consider equipping that routinely for 5 mans. I read that it is bugged for us though, so maybe 4.06 will bring it down to less impressive but more balanced numbers.
Last edited by econ21 on Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Brutalus » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:28 am

It does make a difference with raid bosses, and I do agree that we can improve our dps and thereby make the encounter "easier". However, judging the limit to which you can add in dps stats depends on significant personal factors in your raid/guild/encounter which make it exceedingly difficult to theorise at a "minimum level of survivability" on a general basis. There are the obvious limiting factors: you flat-out dying or requiring more healers for the encounter than is necessary (and thereby losing a dpser); and there are the less-obvious limiting factors: your healers having to focus on healing you at the detriment of raid-healing or even dpsing themselves. The latter is more subtle and therefore is difficult to evaluate (by simple and realistic means), so it comes down to personal judgement and how your healers feel.

The problem (here) with tanking is that its role is often percieved as "staying alive" at the expense of all else and therefore "all else" often gets pushed aside or forgotten about. Most tanks agree that expertise and hit should be pushed aside for cutting-edge progression content. Would most tanks agree that expertise and hit are therefore useless? No, they wouldn't, but they would agree that they are useless for survivability, which is the tank's role as understood by almost all of the raiding community. In practice, increasing tank dps would probably have a positive effect on the raid provided that it is applied correctly, however besides the obvious constraints to applying it correctly, the traditional job of a tank is to "stay alive". Tank death scenarios usually have deeper roots than simply "too much damage" but these roots often aren't obvious and are often never brought into the light - thereby setting public opinion against tanks attempting to increase their dps at the detriment of their survivability. I'm by no means saying that they are wrong, but that this is a "touchy" subject since it borders on the conventional wisdom towards tanking and its roles.

In any case, the realities of whether or not it is worth it are heavily based on the encounter - as is obvious. On, say, Atramedes, the tank damage is not very intense, whereas the dps requirements (might) leave you at a point where the boss runs around one-shotting people and everyone dies when it's at sub-100k health. Would hit cap and expertise cap have made the difference? Most likely. Do you wipe at such low health frequently? Probably not. While low percentage wipes are crushing and depressing, they don't usually occur often, which makes the choice of encounter even more strained. Not to say Atramedes isn't appropriate for it, but if it's the kind of fight where people are dying throughout the fight, and healers could be included in those people, I wouldn't want to find myself with the boss under 10% health with only 1 healer alive and myself not in the appropriate gear to suit it. On the Ascendant Council, we had three under 100k health wipes at the start of Cataclysm. My conclusion was that I didn't feel that my changing gear would have resulted in a realistic change in healing pattern (placebo, so to speak) since he frequently stops to gravity crush people, or to throw fire seeds, and healing on me was generally never a problem. I didn't drop under 50k health, so that extra 50k health could be effectively turned into dps to get the boss down. So, I used a dps flask and some hit/expertise items, and we got our kill. This obviously doesn't mean I made the difference, but it does mean that I contributed to our kill by being more than just a "waste of space" punchbag for the boss.

On any new boss, I would definately use maximum survivability gear, as I imagine most tanks would. Take Halfus Heroic. As healers became more accustomed to the fight, random tank deaths were reduced from happening semi-frequently to never at all. It's the same principle as farm content - I wouldn't dream of wearing a gimmick dps set with strength gems on progress, but our healers have enough experience with the fight and have enough gear to be able to handle the increase in tank damage. As a conclusion, it's wrong to dismiss hit and expertise as useful stats, but before attempting to increase dps I would make sure that you're completely confident with the encounter and that you're completely confident that, as stated by the OP, "we [can] reduce the number of wipes to dps checks more than we increase the number of wipes to tank deaths".
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Durability » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:32 pm

I agree that a general threshold is impossible, since it depends on too many general factors. What we -can- solve for, though, is points where we get a particularly favorable tradeoff. Darkmoon Card: Hurricane, for instance, is absolutely incredible for prot since AS acts as a guaranteed trigger just like HOW does. At the cost of a trinket slot, I gain roughly 1000 dps from DC:H alone.

EDIT: This behavior was nerfed/removed in 4.0.6, so DCH isn't as good anymore.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:02 pm

econ21 wrote:Maybe it is different with raid bosses, due to vengeance, but I find changing gear - e.g. to be hit and expertise capped - has little effect on my dps during 5 mans.


I've noticed the same thing, which seems counter-intuitive. You would think going from 7450 AP/0.64% hit/2 Xpt to 7442 AP/6% hit/30 Xpt with Avalanche and DPS trinkets would be sizeable. And yet I'm a shade under 7k DPS for a full VP run, overall.

My warrior, on the other hand, averages five digits over the course of a heroic in far inferiour gear.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Durability » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:41 pm

Remember that the hit and expertise caps are far lower, and heroics involve a lot of AOE - for which Strength is superior, at least it was in 4.0.3.

I tried out the build in a raid environment tonight and saw great results - on Theralion & Valiona, I went from about 9k dps to a comfortable 14, with a less than 10% increase in (personal) damage taken.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Kihra » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:38 pm

Durability wrote:2000 Mastery is almost exactly 25% block, or 7.5% damage reduction. Applying this number to the 25% number above, even assuming all damage is blockable (which will give a result more skewed to Mastery than would truly be the case), you get a 1.8% increase to the total damage taken by the raid.


I'm not really following your math here. I think you're making some flawed assumptions that are leading you to undervalue block. As far as I can tell you're doing the math as though you took 100 unavoided hits, and now you're blocking 25 of those for 30% DR (you forgot about Holy Shield I think), and so that works out to a 7.5% damage reduction. That's not the right way to evaluate block though.

You have to factor in both your current level of block and current level of avoidance in order to really evaluate the relative damage reduction of 25% block. Let me just give you some ballpark figures. Let's say we have a tank with 50% block and 25% dodge/parry. On top of that there is 5% miss. So for every 100 hits, this tank is avoiding/mitigating:

50*0.6 + 20 = 50%.

So if a boss did 100 hits at 100 damage each, the above tank would take 5000 damage.

If you drop 25% block from that tank's stats, the results change as follows:

25*0.6 + 45 = 60%.

At 100 hits at 100 damage each, the tank that dropped 25% block will take 6000 damage.

That block is supplying ~17% damage reduction, far more than what you're estimating. Or put another way, the tank that drops 25% block is taking ~20% more damage.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby econ21 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:44 am

My first impression is that the patch seems to have done something dramatic to our dps, at least in 5 mans. I topped damage done in heroic SFK last night. I have not seen that since wotlk; I'm always 4th unless there is a REALLY bad PUG dps. (Last night the other dps were decent, each doing 9k dps overall on recount; I forget my own dps: it was modest (7k?) but there was a lot of aoe and no cc). I was in tank gear but hit/soft exp capped.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Arizair » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:37 pm

one thing you can do is stop looking at reforging and look at just damage increases in other ways. pvp gloves increase an already solid chunk of damage by crusader strike by 5% without having to reforge good tank gear to do it.

remember that in heroics, you're probably even higher on expertise than you think. 87's have a 8% less chance to parry than an 88 and CS did get a buff that is amplified by Wrath of the Lightbringer. Further, heroics previously were not using Luck of the Draw correctly. If you pugged 3, you now have a 15% damage buff. I pull 14-16k dps on single target and 20k+ on aoe in 5mans now.

As for tank dps, I do at least 2/3 of the expected average dps (and 3/4 of the raid's average dpser cause we have some failboats) without losing much block at all. I lose a little dodge/parry to get higher hit/expertise, but very little block.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby aureon » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:21 pm

Ask yourself: Why i wipe? (more often)
If the answer is "Enrage timers", gear for threat stats.
If the answer is "I die \ Healers are OOM", gear for survivability.
As for smoothing out things, you taking less damage will help more than raid damage, afaik.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:38 pm

As someone who heals on my main, and tank a llittle on my secondary toon, I think you are far better off adjsuting gear on a per fight basis.

If you are tanking Magmaw and eating Mangle, then survivability against 80k+ mangles is much more important than a little extra tank dps. On the other hand if you are just tanking Omni, you really only need to worry during a boss switch (and Divine Protection should be up for every one of those), so maybe swapping a trinket or some other gear for more DPS won't hurt your healers too much.

I find in general, the more a fight is geared toward dancing, the more likely a tank can get away with a couple threat pieces, but the more there are HEAVY boss hits, the more the tank needs to keep full tank gear on. Good tanks know this and do not try to put up extra DPS when its critical.

On fights where 2 tanks are swapping back and forth (BH for instance), I often find that if I am the higher geared tank that I have to hold off a lot so as not to steal back threat from the other tank too soon, and as a consequence my DPS suffers. However, by my not pulling threat prematurely, the raid benefits, so I suck it up.

As far as 5-mans. They are difficult to really get a feel for, especially using overall dmg. The tank usually has a couple extra seconds building threat with HotR for each pull, and if there are only a few trash some DPS will single target focus (especially ranged). Combine the 2, and I find my tank also often looks pretty good on total dmg for a full instance. However, unless someone is undergeared or does not know their rotation, I rarely outdo my dps in a single target fight.

For example: take the first boss in Grim Batol, I often spam HotR to pick up the troggs, while ranged will single target focus the boss, so its hardly a fair comparison in terms of output capability.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:39 am

After actually trying my ret OS for the first time, I began to appreciate inquisition as a way to boost threat/dps with the HoPo nerf. I noticed dramatic differences on BwD trash, but do not yet have a feel for boss fights, as I only tried it out on BH, Chimaeron and 4Winds bosses so far.

I would build 3 HoPo as fast as possible, hit Inquisistion, hit AvWr -> Div Plea -> SotR, and just go at them like crazy.

For a fight like Maimgor, when you can generate 13k vengeance from being eaten, this strat enabled me to pull over 10k dps, and have unquestioned threat even when I could not dps during the eaten phases.

For the doggies, I would try to save 3 HoPo for when they had the dark debuff making them suscptible to Holy dmg, then run with it. I usually pull 15k-19k (I have both dogs, other tank has the draconid which the raid likes to kill first) and top the dps charts for the doggies. The 19k came from both dogs going dark at the same time for HotR dmg. Note, I do actually have 7% hit and 26 expertise (vs much lower amounts for most other tanks) as I do not like to miss taunts, and HoPo and SotR fails drive me crazy. If SotR misses it does not waste the HoPo, but it does waste a GCD or two, as I do not always notice immediately.

For BH, tank swapping robs me of so much vengeance and causes so much holding back that I cannot tell if it matters that much. For Chimaeron I couldn't tell if it helped any as it was my first kill as a tank, and I was running SoI and spamming WoG to help the raid prior to Massacers. On 4winds, other mechanics also made it difficult to tell if it impacted anything.

Certainly though, against a hard hitting single target like Maimgor, it was an impressive dps increase. I will try it next week for BoT as Halfus and twin dragons should allow me to maintain vengeance and single target focus. I may try it against Council, but that raid is still working on them, so maybe I'll just focus on mechanics for now. For next week's BwD I think I will try it with Magmaw on the exposed head phases. For Maloriak I usually get trash so unless I manage to kill one of the first 3 trash, it won't matter, and Omni I'm not certain about it either. Atramedes was what I went ret for, but on a few bosses at least it seems to be a possibility.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby PsiVen » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:48 pm

I have certainly reshuffled for more DPS as it is a big impact in 10-mans, and I could see reforging in that direction for a progression fight that demands it, but I don't think there is a large set of cases where you will benefit from doing this without losing more on the healers' end.

Example case:
We were learning Cho'gall on 10-man, and didn't seem to have enough DPS with 3 healers. We attempted 2-healing, but I had to spam WoG on myself to stay alive and as a result my personal DPS suffered, reducing the benefit of dropping a healer. Solution? 3-heal it, but use SoT and full threat mode unless things get really dicey. I don't think I would have been comfortable at the time also reforging my gear for hit/expertise.
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