CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Gaxby » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:35 am

Linkie wrote:I was under the impression tanks are pretty balanced right now, MAYBE bears are a bit behind in survivability but on the other hand, their dps was way ahead of other tanks.

Personally I will try raiding today without making any changes to my gear, but maybe using SoT a bit more. I presume that will work out just fine.


I started using SoT (glyphed) too. A 300 Expertise Rating really does make a difference in HoPo generation. I can't believe I would see the day I say that. :(
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Steve » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:43 am

My threat/dps obviously went down somewhat, but I didn't notice any real change in my ability to maintain aggro. I still had issues where I had issues before (holding chim threat off the hit/exp capped DK doing doubles early in the encounter), and didn't really notice any issues anywhere else. I have about 11 expertise (with SoT) and .5% hit.

The only real change is having to pay greater attention to my holy power bar before using my finishers. I've always had to pay slightly more attention at that point in my rotation anyway because of my shield of the righteous miss rate (quite high at those low levels of expertise/hit).
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Destruktive » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:49 am

Have we been OP and I missed the memo?


Ya it's more than likely that we were op. Being able to WoG anyone and still generate close to the same amout of threat as a ShotR is extremely strong. I'm always 'saving' people with WoG pretty much every fight we do, even on trash. No other tank even comes close to having that much raid utility.

However this change to HP generation, and the manner in which they changed it, is pissing me off to no end. And the abrupt idiotic responses of the 2 blues just adds fuel to the fire.

Clearly this is broke, anyone who plays or know the class even a little bit can tell that.

I can live with no HP generation on a 'miss', if they reset the cd on CS/HotR. That makes sense to me.
But currently it's almost unplayable in my current gear. 25% of my CS's on bosses fail to land, this has gimped me so much as to be almost unplayable. I just don't enjoy it and at this point, rather than regear/reforge/regem/reenchant, I'd be more inclined to reroll or just plain quit.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby PsiVen » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:33 am

Hit/expertise are still the lowest priority. Annoying as it is, you save a lot more healing dodging hits than WoGing yourself.

As a nerf, it's not without merit. As a mechanic, it sucks. But it's on a long list of mechanics that suck and can't be fixed with current hit/expertise requirements for tanks.

But currently it's almost unplayable in my current gear. 25% of my CS's on bosses fail to land, this has gimped me so much as to be almost unplayable. I just don't enjoy it and at this point, rather than regear/reforge/regem/reenchant, I'd be more inclined to reroll or just plain quit.


Oh please. Maybe if we were under pressure to maximize threat at all times, you'd have cause for being dramatic.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby mclem » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:56 am

I can't speak for how this affects me directly - in the EU, so tonight's raid will be the first one affected by the patch, but my gut feeling is that I will still be able to tank effectively *if* I get better at starting with Seal of Vengeance and then swap to Seal of Insight (my default tanking seal) once threat is established. We'll see if that's the case.

The main thing that's bothering me is not so much *directly* ability to tank as it is that holy power was always rather thin on the ground for prot pallies - hence, among other things, the change from a 4.5s CS to a 3s one for us - and after that eased things somewhat, it's going to get sparser again. Not just that, but sparser based on RNG rather than just a longer CD, which is just going to make things more frustrating and in turn, potentially unfun.

There's a strong implication from Zarhym's post that they're explicitly *not* expecting us to regear for hit and expertise to compensate for this - that the intention is that we're expected to have lower HP generation in favour of survivability stats (Skipping over the fact that HP is a survivability tool in itself). If we're balanced around that, then in *principle* I'm okay with it. In practice, though, it's still making the new mechanic that's supposed to make our rotations more exciting and dynamic more irritating, and I think that's counter to the original intentions.

One thing does strike me: I could really do with some form of immediate feedback in the event that Holy Shield falls off, because if I'm having an unfortunate string of misses, I might not notice that I need to use the HP I *do* have to refresh it.

Edit: One interesting potential solution: If Crusader strike misses, Hammer of the Righteous doesn't go on CD, and vice-versa. That'd make things interesting! Not sure it'd make 'em *fun*, but let's keep things simple for now.

Second Edit: So, er, what exactly are we meant to do with mobs who have an 'Evasion' mechanic? I would imagine that that's got PvP ramifications too. Do we gain HP from CS if the mob is immune? Can mobs who are in the middle of casting be missed/dodge/parry?
Last edited by mclem on Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Zibey » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:02 am

There's no need for drama, but you have to admitt it was quite a kick in balls, mostly because it was so surprising.

It's massive hit to everyone who put a lot of emphasis on self-healing (which is everyone I assume). I will see in tomorrow raid how much my self healing drops due to that change.

What's the worst for me is that it will feel like TBC again (ofc in smaller scale), with gaps in rotation, where I do absolutely nothing but wait for another cd to come up, because I don't feel like using 2 HoPo WoG is worth it. That will feel damn awkward.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby vinylger » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:13 am

Being "punished" by not getting HoPo on miss is ok for me, but getting our HoPo-builders on CD without having any other chance to generate HoPo (ie chance of 10% per dodge to generate 1 HoPo, dunno) seems a little hard for me.

Any tests done so far about HotR giving HoPo on hit? (not the physical part, i meant the holy damage) Or are they're both treated with the same hit/exp caps?

Edit: my thoughts about that were that HotR does two types of damage, increasing the total hit chance? As always, just thoughts, no maths.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:18 am

HammerNova has never given holy power. Both the holy power generation and the HammerNova portion are tied to the physical portion.

If it helps, think of the physical portion of the spell, and the Nova portion as a proc that can occur if the spell succeeds.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:50 am

just ran a brc heroic daily, didn't really notice the change to not getting a HP on CS or hotr miss. stacking up and maintaining a full stack of censure on up to 4 mobs is really, really good in the AoE tps department (I <3 u avenger's shield). Will report back after the raid tonight. Also don't forget that there are not many level 83/boss level adds, meaning that they have a lower total avoidance chance.
Last edited by Fetzie on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby ironpants » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:51 am

Paladin Bug Fixes

* Crusader Strike, Holy Shock, and Hammer of the Righteous no longer incorrectly grant Holy Power from a missed attack.


If it is their overall design philosophy that not hitting attacks should give no resource then iam fine with it. But to bring us in line with other classes the CD on CS/HotR should reset if the attack is not connecting.

On the other hand, iam pretty sure that warriors do get their resource (rage) if their attack is dodged or parried. So should we. A dodged or parried attack is NOT a missed attack in my eyes.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Malthrax » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:59 am

Destruktive wrote:
Have we been OP and I missed the memo?


Ya it's more than likely that we were op. Being able to WoG anyone and still generate close to the same amout of threat as a ShotR is extremely strong. I'm always 'saving' people with WoG pretty much every fight we do, even on trash. No other tank even comes close to having that much raid utility.


Were any top-200 HC raiding guilds deliberately benching their warrior, druid, and DK tanks in favor of paladins?

No.

So much for "raid utility" and "overpowered-ness"
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Linkie » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:02 am

mclem wrote:
One thing does strike me: I could really do with some form of immediate feedback in the event that Holy Shield falls off, because if I'm having an unfortunate string of misses, I might not notice that I need to use the HP I *do* have to refresh it.



You can do this pretty easily with PowerAuras. I just made a Holy Shield aura with a timer. You can probably make it only show if the timer on Holy Shield is <5s or something too.

Zibey wrote:What's the worst for me is that it will feel like TBC again (ofc in smaller scale), with gaps in rotation, where I do absolutely nothing but wait for another cd to come up, because I don't feel like using 2 HoPo WoG is worth it. That will feel damn awkward.


I tested out the new rotation on dummies and it feels pretty wonky, yeah. However, WoG scales linearly with HP, so if you have leftover GCDs it doesn't matter how much HP you have. ShoR you always want 3 HP though.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:04 am

Perhaps I am too old or I don´t have the mental bandwidth to skim my raidframe and decide whom to heal, while I am occupied with the boss. Or at least I do more mistakes. Anyways seems to me that you more or less snipe heals from the healers instead of doing something productive.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:26 am

PsiVen wrote:Oh please. Maybe if we were under pressure to maximize threat at all times, you'd have cause for being dramatic.


Probably it´s more the annoyance factor. RNG and the amount of HP lost is probably affecting more our playfeeling than the actual threat generation. Can we wor with it, without expertise, hit? Very likely . Will it be more annoying. Probably.

The whole affair was handled poorly. A "bug fix" yeah sure, at a point in Beta they got rid of the hit requirement because they and the playtesters felt it was too spiky. IIRC there even was a blue forum post about it.
They should look in their forum log and so when they lie.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Njall » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:40 am

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