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CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Flex » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:09 pm

They have a guarantee for one aspect that's also a DPS loss and then a huge risk when Death strike doesn't hit.

They gamble with their survival, we gamble with threat.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Vort » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:20 pm

Flex wrote:They have a guarantee for one aspect that's also a DPS loss and then a huge risk when Death strike doesn't hit.

They gamble with their survival, we gamble with threat.


3 Missed/Parried/Dodged CS's in a row is a fair gamble with survival to be brutally honest. I've also long been a skeptic about the Rune system, but that's the DK mechanic that has been in place since they were released. We only just got Holy Power in 4.0 and it's been really iffy since it came out. This just isn't the way to "fix" it.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dwarfadin » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:55 pm

So, unless we make enough pressure on blizzard until they revert the change, They consider it a bug.

Zarhym (blue poster) said "We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks." "Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams."

The example is definetely a bullshit. Warriors may miss a Slam, but if we miss CS, we can't even cast it. It's more like hit rating reduces the cooldown of our Slam!
If until yesterday we could Slam once every 9 sec, today we can expect one every 12.
Also, it affects our survivability through WoG.

However, i'm somehow aware that blue posters are generally just... forum posters, and don't really knows the truth behind patch notes.
I'd really like to listen to Ghostcrawler about it.


However, until the day they fix us, we have to lick our wounds and go on.

Without the assumption we have a ShoR/WoG once every 9 second totally mess the rotation up.
It was previously concluded that 2HoPo ShoR are generally bad, so should we fill up with AS procs or HW/Cons if we don't have 3 HoPo yet?
Some theorycraft is needed (if Theck doesn't delete his char in rage :P )
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fenris » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:02 pm

Missed CS->Pushing forward ShoR->empty gcd->hole for a GC proc

They did say they were going to buff Gc,didnt they?

:lol:

( -.- )
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Marilee » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:12 pm

Yes, so assuming some holes in our rotation, what is everybody planning on doing when there is no Grand Crusader proc?

Personally, I'm going to use the spare time to send lewd whispers to my raid leader. Any other ideas?
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dwarfadin » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:20 pm

Fenris wrote:Missed CS->Pushing forward ShoR->empty gcd->hole for a GC proc

They did say they were going to buff Gc,didnt they?

:lol:

( -.- )



I quite forgot that GC procs are connected to our CS hits. So not only missing a CS doesn't grant the HoPo we need, but prevents the proc so that we'll have nothing but a not-scaling-with-attack-power ability ( HW ) to smash with our face.

Lovely.

WTB another rotation?
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:55 pm

Marilee wrote:Yes, so assuming some holes in our rotation, what is everybody planning on doing when there is no Grand Crusader proc?

Personally, I'm going to use the spare time to send lewd whispers to my raid leader. Any other ideas?


At least I'll have a free GCD to cast hand of salvation within the first 20 seconds?

:-P :-)
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:32 pm

kristoferpally wrote:I like how the thread was locked and it wont let me make any similar threads on the forum


Really? So much for feedback is appreciated.
If this whole change was intended from the beginning, why didn´t they state it in the open and kept their intentions hidden instead? Theorycrafters could have done simulations and see if it actually is a good idea. Now they block discussion about it?

I expected that they are probably not too happy about tankadins dropping threat stats completely and do something about it. Somehow I never expected them to meddle with our HoPo generation. The whole system is clunky and badly designed. They never managed to really decouple our Aoe rotation from our single target rotation (Hotr instead of CS, Inquisition perhaps instead of Shor, wow, or just WoG it). GC is still a joke.

I thought that they would do something with Vengeance. Slower decay, lower maximum or so but seems that someone really loves Vengeance as it is. It seems to me that Vengeance is the factor that no one really cares about threat stats unless they are somehow tied to tank survivability. It seems to me that it is a general problem because we get so much free AP and we would value our threat stats more, if we generate less via Vengeance but well perhaps I am totally wrong...
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Beefchief » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:08 am

Just reforged about 3% dodge, 2% parry, and 3% mastery to get my expertise to 26 and hit rating to 5.80%. This just hurts. I really hope this change is reverted. Missing a ton of my Crusader-enabled Holy Power charges tonight was really demoralizing.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Midoriko » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:53 am

•Crusader Strike, Holy Shock, and Hammer of the Righteous no longer incorrectly grant Holy Power from a missed attack.

According to patch notes, CS, HS and HotR will not generate holy power only if they are missed. Parries and dodges should still generate holy power. I didn't play on PTR, so i dont know if we weren't gaining holy power when they are dodged or parried too but if we weren't, either it is unintended and should be fixed or patch noted don't reflect the change correctly.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Olen » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:59 am

Miss/Dodge/Parry all do not grant a Holy Power on live today. The note means miss, not Miss.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Jaitee » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:18 am

here is what i wrote about it in the official forums in some random topic

its not about threat our threat will be fine though we are probably the lowest damage tank (but hey someone has too be right)

its about the feel of the class and now our rotation just feels wonky

at the end of the cataclysm beta they reduced the CD of CS to 3 seconds to get rid of boring gaps in our rotation this change adds one right back in if they felt that WoG was too much healing then omg nerf WoG's scaling with prot make it not scale with vengeance AP bring back the 100% uptime divine plea for prot our threat wasnt the best of any tank iirc we where 3rd so its not about us needing a threat nerf

too me what i think happened is some developer saw that we get the hopo when we dont hit and was like OMG OMG we need to change that who cares if it gimps prots rotation we cant have them rewarded for missing...rewarded...what we lose the damage!

this change wasnt warranted its got pretty much every prot pally pissed and scratching their head saying why?
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Gaxby » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:55 am

Jaitee wrote:here is what i wrote about it in the official forums in some random topic

its not about threat our threat will be fine though we are probably the lowest damage tank (but hey someone has too be right)

its about the feel of the class and now our rotation just feels wonky

at the end of the cataclysm beta they reduced the CD of CS to 3 seconds to get rid of boring gaps in our rotation this change adds one right back in if they felt that WoG was too much healing then omg nerf WoG's scaling with prot make it not scale with vengeance AP bring back the 100% uptime divine plea for prot our threat wasnt the best of any tank iirc we where 3rd so its not about us needing a threat nerf

too me what i think happened is some developer saw that we get the hopo when we dont hit and was like OMG OMG we need to change that who cares if it gimps prots rotation we cant have them rewarded for missing...rewarded...what we lose the damage!

this change wasnt warranted its got pretty much every prot pally pissed and scratching their head saying why?


Agreed.

This isn't a nerf. This is a stupid change that doesn't solve the "threat is a joke" problem and makes it harder for us to do our job.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:24 am

Probably it boils down to, our resource system gets more clunky and annoying. Worst case scenarios, like three missed CS in a row, and problems with tank swaps are more likely unless we go for hit/expertise to minimize it, reducing our survivability and self healing.

I don´t know, was this change really warranted? Have we been OP and I missed the memo? Ok we can live for a long time without a healer in a heroic but well...

Seems some DPS department developer came in, What they generate resources if they miss? This is totally unfair.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Linkie » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:47 am

I was under the impression tanks are pretty balanced right now, MAYBE bears are a bit behind in survivability but on the other hand, their dps was way ahead of other tanks.

Personally I will try raiding today without making any changes to my gear, but maybe using SoT a bit more. I presume that will work out just fine.
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