CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:23 pm

I'm livid. "Incorrectly" my ass. There was a blue post during beta that explicitly said they were changing CS and HotR to generate one holy power per cast, regardless of combat table result, because they felt the system was too prone to unlucky streaks and wanted tank threat to be more stable. I wish I could dig up the link; I could swear it was a post by the crab himself.

If they changed their minds, fine. But tell us when you make the change on the PTR, don't feign ignorance until the last minute and try and slip it in under the fucking radar like it's a bugfix. That's called treating your customers like shit.

It pisses me off because I spend a lot of time trying to make accurate models of the way we tank, and shit like this makes it damn hard to do that efficiently. I spend far more time on this than I really should, and this sort of bullshit makes me feel like I wasted a lot of damn time.

Give me back Ghostcrawler's constant feedback on the forums. Even if I disagree with the crab from time to time, at least he was fairly honest and up-front with us about design changes we didn't like.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fetzie » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:30 pm

It was a ghostcrawler post, and it said just that. Of course we have no proof of this because the beta forums are no longer reachable.

edit: if the post was on the old "live" forums, chances are it is in the MMOC blue tracker
Last edited by Fetzie on Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby vexryn » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:33 pm

Some old GC posts about the reworking of prot mechanics back in beta...
http://www.wowblues.com/us/discusion-on ... 67468.html

3rd post from the bottom is GC specifically articulating that Holy Power will be generated PER CAST, not per hit.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Jeremoot » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:43 pm

*Disregard
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Redleg » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:47 pm

Jeremoot wrote:Let me remind everybody that this also reduces the value of Mastery, considering a missed CS/HotR will result in Holy Shield downtime unless you have hit and expertise caps.

I'm not saying that the block cap strategy is bad now, but if you don't have the gear levels to reach it, you might want to consider avoidance stats over mastery. I'll let a math geek work that one out.


Well, holy shield is a 20 second buff, so you would have to have a lot of misses in a row (certainly possible, just not something that would happen very often).
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fetzie » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:52 pm

Let me remind everybody that this also reduces the value of Mastery, considering a missed CS/HotR will result in Holy Shield downtime unless you have hit and expertise caps.


you can hit a 1 HP WoG or inquisition to be guaranteed a Holy Shield refresh.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby vexryn » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:54 pm

Jeremoot wrote:Let me remind everybody that this also reduces the value of Mastery, considering a missed CS/HotR will result in Holy Shield downtime unless you have hit and expertise caps.

I'm not saying that the block cap strategy is bad now, but if you don't have the gear levels to reach it, you might want to consider avoidance stats over mastery. I'll let a math geek work that one out.


You can always cast a weaker WoG to refresh the full duration Holy Shield assuming you have at least 1/2 GbtL. It just means there's a possibility of casting significantly less effective 1- or 2-HP WoGs while you keep HS up.


Redleg wrote:Well, holy shield is a 20 second buff, so you would have to have a lot of misses in a row (certainly possible, just not something that would happen very often).


Well, if you had 0 hit and just 10 expertise from SoT glyph it means 8% miss, 4% dodge, and 11.5% parry chance. So your chance of NOT getting an HP is 23.5% per CS, which is not trivially low to produce a 5-6 fails-to-hit streak.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Vort » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:55 pm

This entire topic is an insult to protection paladins in general. What happens when we get a chain of unlucky miss/parry/dodge on the boss with our CS/HotR? Our threat was already mediocre compared to the other tanks. Our self heals/mitigation/support was the only thing that really got us a raid spot in end game encounters. The mere fact that there was no response, no mention, not a damn thing about the issue whilst PTR was up from the big bad blues at Blizz is frustrating as hell. Tank swaps are going to be sketchy as all hell now, not to mention initial threat. Time to gear up my DK... really just insulting to give us a shoddy mechanic that barely works as is, and then just bork it so it doesn't work at all. I know my usefulness in a 10 man raiding guild just hit the dirt.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Zannis » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:00 pm

vexryn wrote:Some old GC posts about the reworking of prot mechanics back in beta...
http://www.wowblues.com/us/discusion-on ... 67468.html

3rd post from the bottom is GC specifically articulating that Holy Power will be generated PER CAST, not per hit.


Reading the exact post you mentioned, GC is stating that Hammer of the Righteous will only award one HP per cast, not each target that's hit by Hammer. Completely different issue.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby vexryn » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:10 pm

Zannis wrote:
vexryn wrote:Some old GC posts about the reworking of prot mechanics back in beta...
http://www.wowblues.com/us/discusion-on ... 67468.html

3rd post from the bottom is GC specifically articulating that Holy Power will be generated PER CAST, not per hit.


Reading the exact post you mentioned, GC is stating that Hammer of the Righteous will only award one HP per cast, not each target that's hit by Hammer. Completely different issue.


Yes, but the point is still an articulation that the intended mechanic for holy power generation is per CAST, not per HIT.

Note he didn't say "we intend for holy power to be generated when you hit your primary target but not the extra targets." He said that the intention is for HP to be generated based on the cast, regardless of the hit (one OR many).
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:23 pm

That's not the post I was thinking of. There was one where he specifically said that resource generation felt too RNG if CS didn't generate holy power on misses.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby kristoferpally » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:32 pm

I like how the thread was locked and it wont let me make any similar threads on the forum
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Destruktive » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:17 pm

Saltycracker wrote:
Sur-Pseudo wrote:I would actually aim for Exp. Soft cap, before hit cap


Sounds great, but HoTR, Judgement, Avenger's Shield and Holy Wrath already can't be dodged or parried, and expertise provides no benefit to those abilities.



I just did some testing, HotR can be dodged/parried, not sure if this is another stealth change or if it was like that before.
This whole thing has me beyond pissed.

With the glyph of seal of truth, I have 12 expertise, 2.36 hit. So that gives me a 25.14 chance to miss/dodge/parry. I'm sure most protadins have similar stats. I'll see how it goes tonight, but right now from the little testing I did, this is no fun to play at all.

My dk's gear isn't too far behind my pallies, at least they were considerate enough to fuck us over early in the xpac, so switching toons wouldn't be too hard to do right now. Really don't want it to come to that, but I can't stop thinking about it.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Flex » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:31 pm

Vort wrote: Time to gear up my DK... really just insulting to give us a shoddy mechanic that barely works as is, and then just bork it so it doesn't work at all.


Yea, DKs have it easy...

Blood DKs have already been on and off the bus about stacking threat stats. At least two, and more like three, of our defensive stats are predicated on hitting. Death Strike accounts for our 'shield' and 'armor' compared to pallies/warriors and it is timing dependent. Yes, you can queue up another one immediately after a miss/parry but the shield and healing are based on damage taken and if that window shifts the wrong way the DK just nerfed themselves. The third is Blade Barrier. With the weird incestuous way that DK resources work the highest survivability plan is to use blood runes as infrequently as possible. When a Heart Strike misses, and refunds the rune, it can hose the rotation. For that reason a lot of DKs don't use Heart Strike and use Blood Boil as a guarantee.


I know my usefulness in a 10 man raiding guild just hit the dirt.


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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Vort » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:55 pm

Flex I'm not tryin to say DK's have it easy, or easier in general than Prot Paladins. But as it said in the quote, "For that reason a lot of DKs don't use Heart Strike and use Blood Boil as a guarantee." We don't have a guarantee anymore, and that just seems ridiculous because our rotation was just a priority list. The mechanic was already in a condition that wasn't very "refined" and then they "fix" it into a steaming pile of goop.
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