CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:48 am

baleogthefierce wrote:I ran BH the other day with one of our DK dps with a blood offspec as the second tank. I think he summed it up nicely when, upon inspecting the meters, he said "Wow, I took less damage, did more self healing, and dealt more damage than you did during that fight."

>_<


Yes, and paladins can solo tank BH. I'm not certain DKs can, but I suspect not. :lol:
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby milesfromhome » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:18 pm

wrathblood wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, I thought this was the Maintankadin Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations forum, not the WoW General Forum. You know, a place where people crunch numbers and figure things out, not QQ about how totally broken we are and how all the other classes are now better.

There are a thousand places on the internet where that kind of discussion is totally fine, but frankly this isn't one of them. No, this isn't EJ, the standards are much friendlier here (I'd actually get a temp ban on EJ for this post for "Back seat moderating") and, yes, we're all upset about this. But frankly, this website and forum do have some standards and should be better than this.

If you think DKs are better tanks across the board than us, then great. Break out a spreadsheet and crunch some numbers so folks can discuss it. Maybe you'll use an interesting approach or figure out something intriguing while doing it. But enough with the "woe is me" stuff, there's been more than enough.


With the exception of Theck, almost nobody has crunched any numbers at any point in this thread's 19 pages. We'd complain elsewhere, but this seems to be the only thread with intelligent, experienced people, not to mention the only one that hasn't been deleted yet.

On topic, I ran OOM in Heroic Chimeron last night, to the point where I almost missed a taunt because I didn't have the mana to cast it. It's quite apparent that we can no longer fill in all the dead GCD's, cooldown permitting, with AW and Cons if we want to remain mana neutral.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:27 pm

milesfromhome wrote:We'd complain elsewhere, but this seems to be the only thread with intelligent, experienced people, not to mention the only one that hasn't been deleted yet.


This.

milesfromhome wrote:On topic, I ran OOM in Heroic Chimeron last night, to the point where I almost missed a taunt because I didn't have the mana to cast it. It's quite apparent that we can no longer fill in all the dead GCD's, cooldown permitting, with AW and Cons if we want to remain mana neutral.


I had the same issue on Tuesday, I switched to using SoI the entire fight so that I have enough mana to use radiance for every Feud and not have downtime in my rotation for regen.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:49 pm

I can lock this thread too if you prefer?

Wrathblood is right. I've been a bit too lax policing this topic, mostly because I'm busy with my own headaches. While I do think it's good to have a thread to complain in, this really is the wrong forum for it. There's already a thread in General for complaining, anyway.

Let's try and cut down on the QQ. Our threat is still fine with either seal thanks to Vengeance, our survivability isn't that much worse than before, and our self-healing needed a reduction anyhow.

What we should be talking about are the practical outcomes that we're observing.
-We risk strings of misses delaying SotR. Only an issue for burst or time-limited threat.
-We are beginning to have mana issues that limit our use of fillers. Maybe this means that simulating SotR>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW isn't a good idea anymore, since it's not mana neutral. Should I be simming SotR>CS>J>AS separately? I'm already looking at adding mana consumption to the priority sims.
-Threat on the pull is much more touchy. This should make DP+Inq+Exo+J+AS pulls much better than DP+SotR pulls. They were already a little better, now they're probably flatly superior. I'd like to sim this in MATLAB, but I only have so much time. Maybe someone else with MATLAB skills is interested in taking on this project?
-Modeling the new rotation analytically is a NIGHTMARE. Tlitp and I have been working on it on and off for two weeks now, and we're running into roadblocks every route we try. I'd love some help or suggestions on this; we might need a fresh approach that we're not seeing.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:15 am

What about bosses where vengeance doesn´t build up so fast or decays often? Like bosses who cast often or don´t sty with you the whole time?
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Eneroth » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:25 am

Okay so after the changes that have gone in with 4.0.6 I am curious as to hear how things are going. I am one of the paladins that switched to hit the soft cap on expertise as well as hitting a bit above two percent to hit. Since this has been live for a while now, I am asking to see what some other tanks are thinking about this change.

Main Tanking Set

Is it worth to change out survivability for threat stats?

I know that once we are tanking we will hold aggro fine, but till we are able to build up a nice amount of threat, will going back to pre 4.06 stats hurt our ability to tank?

PS: Sorry if I am a bit off, it's after 6 in the morning and for some reason I have not been able to fall asleep.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Epimer » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:48 am

Eneroth wrote:Is it worth to change out survivability for threat stats?



No. I can hold threat just fine with 6 expertise and 1% hit from the Draenei racial. Threat continues to be a non-issue, and hence gearing for threat stats is still not smart.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby inthedrops » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:11 am

Epimer wrote:
Eneroth wrote:Is it worth to change out survivability for threat stats?



No. I can hold threat just fine with 6 expertise and 1% hit from the Draenei racial. Threat continues to be a non-issue, and hence gearing for threat stats is still not smart.


Agreed. Completely not worth it. I found a tank on my server equally geared to me and noticed he reforged for hit/expertise cap/soft cap. He reforged avoidance into those stats and got it at the expense of ~4% avoidance. That's a ton!
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Eneroth » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:39 am

Thanks guys, I guess allot of this was just a huge scare with it being a ninja nerf more then anything else. When I log on today I am going to reforge some of my gear back to the way I had it before. Avoidance is such a huge deal, that I hate having to reforge some gear for it. I guess I can pick up some gear from heroics and gear them a bit for faster threat for an off set. I can see some fights where it can be helpful.

Thanks again.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby sealava » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:02 am

while i don't like to QQ or complain about blizz changes and nerfs , i do hope others still complain simply because if the class community doesn't complain and make blizz see whats going on nothing will change.
other classes QQ after they are nerfed and in another patch or 2 they get buffed again.
i don't want to see the tankadin community simply bow down after each nerf and say " yes yes blizz was right we were too op , we are still fine yes yes" ..a time will come when things become just to late to even QQ to fix things anymore.
BUT by complaining I don't mean mindlessly trashing blizz , cursing and talking nonsense .
but focused intelligent discussion like some people here have pointed out will get us blizzards ear and things hopefully will get fixed.
yes blizzard makes mistakes in their games ..
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We actually spent a bit of time talking to the designers about this very topic, and it's something they're well aware of and realize isn't always ideal.

A few really great points came out of that meeting, though:

* Some changes in 4.0.6 and/or 4.0.6a were just wrong. For a myriad of reasons the changes made in 4.0.6/4.0.6a either did not pan out as expected, or were simply mis-calculations/interpretations. Which is the reason for a number of the quick reversions and changes in hotfixes shortly after the patch.

just my 2 cent :wink:
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Chicken » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:48 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
baleogthefierce wrote:I ran BH the other day with one of our DK dps with a blood offspec as the second tank. I think he summed it up nicely when, upon inspecting the meters, he said "Wow, I took less damage, did more self healing, and dealt more damage than you did during that fight."

>_<
Yes, and paladins can solo tank BH. I'm not certain DKs can, but I suspect not. :lol:
Technically anyone can, assuming you have high enough DPS. If you have your entire group in front of Argaloth you can take more meteor slashes (5 should be doable as that should be around 100k damage if I understand the mechanics right), and Fel Firestorm takes care of any resets. I suppose your group has to be good at dodging the Fel Firestorm fires too.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:47 pm

I looked at my uptime of the 20% slow and seems that I had times when it wasn´t up at all. I thought it applied regardless if Judgement hit or not? Vindication the same but very rarely. less so. But after a string of misses it was gone, too.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby moxom » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:02 am

I don't know if what I'm doing is "correct", but I've removed any reforges I had that changed exp/hit into avoidance (not the ones to mastery).. I didn't do it in the first couple of raids after the patch, but with my pre 4.0.6 setup I had some situations where I didn't have a single holy power 10 seconds into the fight (apart from the 3 from DP obviously).

I just thought that when dps is close to pulling agro even after MD's cause of a random miss streak, I don't think that tiny bit of mitigation is worth that much.

I'm sitting around 22 exp (with SoT) and 2.2% hit, and I feel that it's enough, at least I havn't had any big problems with start threat since.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Tev » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:25 am

You know, with as much as I seem to miss now (I swear my 2% miss chance is more like 20% some days) it makes me think, I wish they would have added hit/exp scaling off of dodge/parry. No where near as OP as stam==>ap (as both stats have caps), and scales with gear and new content (if I recall their plan was to make higher tiers require more hit/exp to land on bosses, functionality that was previously unavailable).

If I have to keep swapping out survivability for hit and exp, it wont be my mana I have to worry about, but my healers. In the end though, I just don't want to have to carry around another full set of gear, I run out of bag space too quick as it is. I don't see the need to have to have multiple sets of gear to perform the same job when it doesn't include something like Resists.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Vort » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:29 pm

Posting in this thread since it's 'somewhat' related to the topic and I didn't want to start a fresh one.

Unsure if this is intended or a bug, it's probably merely an oversight in the programming I'd imagine.

Seal of Insight does not appear to proc any of it's effects (both healing and mana return) upon swinging at a target with an absorb shield up unless the target takes some form of damage from the swing. Seal of Truth does apply a stack of Censure to a target with an Absorb shield up, the damage is absorbed as expected. I haven't tested as of yet but Seal of Justice would likely still apply it's movement restriction debuff, and Judgement even on a full absorb will still proc Judgements of the Wise for us, and Judgement of Justice on the target. I also assume that Judgement would still apply Censure Stacks on a full absorb.

It's not so much crippling to any situation other than a minor frustration to PVP but as far as I am aware with warriors, they modified it so that rage is gained upon their swings being absorbed. Curious if anyone has any 'insight' (pun not intended) on this.
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