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CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby wrathblood » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:08 am

My apologies for posting this like 10 topics after the fact.

Just confirming Jere's findings that WoG does indeed generate zero threat. Also, both SoI and Mending (can't say for anything else) generate 0.5 threat per 1 healing (1.5 with RF).
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Doxa » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:21 am

Oh awesome. Now they deleted the thread on the official forums.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sagara » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:31 am

Nope, still found it:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... 20?page=19

But it IS degenerating something fierce. I'm fearing it might get a "turned into flamewar" lock and being neatly hidden under the rug.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Arianne » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:41 am

As for my experiments with increasing my hit and expertise, it seemed to work well on Maloriak. I found that with 2/2 PoJ I was able to kite things well enough that I could control when I was getting hit and make sure that I had a CD up at that time so that my reduced avoidance wasn't too much of an issue.

On Chimaeron I used a set that had more reforged exp/hit than my previous Chimaeron set but I swapped out a couple of pieces to my more traditional survival set and things didn't feel particularly different than pre-4.0.6 (well, once they hotfixed the caustic slime hitting tanks issue). The only thing that caused a wipe due to me personally was that the Guardian Spirit animation doesn't go away if Guardian Spirit procs (or didn't on Wednesday) and therefore I failed to put up a secondary cooldown after GS was gone and got killed during Feud (though it may also have been that GS's new limit on healing prevented it from healing both hits of the double attack like it did pre-patch).

I also feel like Anshal has some bonus parry or something on heroic because it feels like I get parried a LOT during the opening portion of the CoW fight. -_-

I find myself hitting ShoR when I shouldn't be yet because my last CS missed and I didn't notice it before I hit ShoR and queued. The other reason why they made it so that you always got Holy Power was because of the lag in the game telling you that yes you did have the Holy Power that you generated on the previous CS. So if you're going to be doing CS -> ShoR then you have about 1 second to decide if you're actually going to hit that ShoR once the game notifies you that you got the Holy Power you thought you did. I guess I'm going to have to turn MSBT back on so that I can have it notify me of CS misses so that I don't have to rely on the holy power bar.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:49 am

Doxa's talking about the "Official Blue Post, PROT PALLY is cooked" thread (which used to be here), which was deleted. Which is also odd, because that thread was much tamer and more civil than the ret one you linked. Again, there doesn't seem to be much point in deleting the thread; the title was sensationalist, of course, but there was a good, solid discussion going on between a few smart posters about resource generation mechanics. It's sad to see the thread nuked, probably by an over-zealous CM.

Luckily, I still have it in my browser history, so I was able to go back and recover my second (and third, fourth, and fifth) posts for posterity. The first was already copied in several locations here.

Theck wrote:I wasn't intending to return to this post, but it seems a lot of people are awfully concerned with my opinion for some reason, in rare cases are presenting an opinion as mine when it isn't. Rather than quote every item that I want to comment on, I'm just going to list them as individual thoughts. Keep in mind that these are just my opinions, and I'm not an oracle or savant. I'm just a dude that finds the "systems engineering" aspects of game design interesting, knows enough math to try and accurately model those aspects, and spends too much of his own time doing so.

I have to split this into <edit>four!</edit> parts to circumvent the 5000-character limit it seems. Here's part I:

* The sky is falling! - I don't think the sky is falling.

* Theck said so. - I don't think that dropping my name gives an argument any more weight. I may have a good understanding of the underlying class mechanics, but that hardly means I'm infallible. I make mistakes too, and I'm certainly capable of having opinions on things that are later revealed to be naive and wrong. Please don't use my name as an appeal to authority argument; I'd prefer to think that what I write is taken seriously because of the strength of its content, not name recognition. I'm sure that Blizzard sees it this way too.

* Threat - Our threat is still absolutely fine as far as I can tell; I still had no trouble maintaining a huge threat lead with high Vengeance in Baradin Hold. Random heroics seemed fine as well. I did all of this in my current spec/build, with ~1% hit and 3 expertise, SoI/WoG/HotR glyphs. I can't comment on BWD/BoT/TotFW because we don't raid until Fri/Sat, but I don't expect it will cause any problems. The buffs to CS and seals seem to have more or less offset the losses incurred by our reduced resoruce generation rate.

* DPS vs other tanks - I have no idea where this puts our DPS output compared to other tanks. I honestly haven't had time to compare it directly. I was under the impression that pre-4.0.6 all four classes were pretty close with the exception of DKs, who were lagging a bit. That may or may not be hearsay though, so I'm happy to defer to others who have looked at the comparison more carefully.

In any event, if this was the case, we're not significantly worse-off than before.

* Self-healing - Our self-healing will certainly be lower than pre-patch because of reduced resource generation. I already felt that this was a bit out of hand, though my impression is that Blood Tanks are even better than we are as far as self-healing capabilities go. A nerf in this department may very well have been needed. I don't think that reducing our resource generation was the logical way to go about it, as resource generation is tied to other parts of the class, and this sort of change can cause rippling effects. I would have rather seen WoG and/or SoI nerfed directly for prot. I have more thoughts on this, but they fit better in a later topic.

* Practical effect - The practical effect that this change has caused for most paladins is small. Hit/Exp are still weaker than avoidance or mastery for survivability, and our threat is fine, so there's no reason to prioritize hit/exp more than we did before the patch (that is, not at all). Vengeance still ensures that threat is irrelevant at its current tuning, which is still a point that I feel can't be emphasized enough. I do not think that it is good class design that all four tanks ignore threat stats. I would much prefer an environment where threat did matter, and we had to gear for it appropriately. This is the direct result of Vengeance being too strong. Reducing the magnitude of the Vengeance bonus would go a long way towards making hit and expertise matter for all four classes. If that means that Vengeance doesn't keep pace in T12/T13, then it could be slowly ramped up in magnitude over the course of the expansion.

Part II:


* Resource mechanics and rotation - the other effect this change is to make the tanking rotation less predictable. I'm biased here, because I like being able to predict the next few GCDs, at least to within one or two procs (Sword & Board, Grand Crusader, etc). I like knowing that i have a heavy-hitter (or WoG) coming up in 2 GCDs, so that I can plan accordingly.

This change makes it difficult to do that with SotR (or WoG). It makes one of our staple abilities much less accessible. Nine seconds is a long time already; the new model puts SotR on an effective cooldown of 12-15 seconds for a "properly" geared raid tank. This, by itself, gives the rotation a very slow feel, which is probably one of the unsaid complaints many of the posters in this thread have been trying to vocalize (textualize?). This is why it's not just a "penalty for failure;" messing with resource mechanics causes subtle but important effects in the "feel" of a class' play style.

Since I haven't played a bear or DK tank at max level, the only analogy I can really provide is that of a Warrior. The warrior rotation feels tight, fluid, and dynamic. The base heartbeat is the 6-second Shield Slam cooldown, occasionally shorter via Sword & Board. The warrior knows that he has something to cast every GCD, and has a good feel for how long until his next big hitter. The shortness of the cycle here is important, because it gives the class a fast-paced feel when you play it.

This feeling is almost completely absent in the paladin play style. While this was true to a degree before this patch, it's unquestionably so now. Nine seconds was barely fast enough to keep SotR from feeling like a long-cooldown filler. Twelve seconds or more is simply too long. It marginalizes our DPS finisher and makes it feel less important because it sees smaller representation in our output. The result is that SotR is just another filler on a moderate cooldown, rather than an ability we get to hit often. And again, this is all because of the slower resource generation this patch introduces.

* Mana concerns - One thing I noticed yesterday was that mana felt more constraining. With fewer SotRs we're casting more fillers, which means higher utilization of expensive spells like Holy Wrath and Consecration. I found that fairly often, I'd have an empty GCD that I could not fill with Cons or Holy Wrath just because of mana limitations.

This is one of the "rippling effects" I mentioned earlier; by reducing resource generation, our mana usage has accidentally increased. A buff to Judgements of the Wise may be in order, or a reduction in the base mana cost of Holy Wrath or Consecration. I'm not personally a fan of the Hallowed Ground talent model, as I would prefer talents to enhance skills rather than be the floodgate dictating their usage (outside of proc-like effects). But that's obviously a personal preference. Certainly, this change will not drive us to consider HG mandatory; it's still a choice of "weak threat talent" vs. "survivability" in an environment where threat is trivial.

If the intent is that Consecration should not be used against single targets, despite having empty GCDs in which to cast it, then limiting usage based on mana constraints seems logical enough, and the current system is probably OK. It does, however, make it much harder to use Consecration in AoE situations as well. It might be interesting to experiment with a model where Consecrations mana cost changes with the number of targets. If, for example, it returned 1% of its mana cost on each damage tick for each additional target it hits, then it could be prohibitively expensive for a single target but perfectly reasonable for 4+ targets.

Part III:


* Ideals - I've said a lot about how we are, but I want to take a few moments to give the "here's how I'd do it" version of paladin tanking, so that people don't inappropriately attribute to me their opinions on how things "should be."

-I would want threat to matter. A nerfed Vengeance would accomplish this, and reduce the tendency for raiders to favor SoI/WoG.

-I don't personally care for the "stand on the front lines and WoG yourself silly" model. I would prefer a tank to have to carefully consider and balance threat and survivability.

-I like the idea that tanks can make decisions on the fly, and choose to heal themselves on occasion. But the current situation makes it feel mandatory to do nothing but heal. That's not particularly fun for me. It would feel neat if dumping all of our Holy Power into WoG wasn't the best way to kill bosses; WoG seems better-suited to being a short-duration cooldown than a holy power dump for Prot.

-Thus, in my ideal vision of the paladin tank, we would want to use SoT/SotR almsot exclusively. WoG and SoI would be advantageous only for solo play as a way to cut down on downtime, or for emergency situations where the survivability became worth a significant threat loss (i.e. NOT on a regular raid encounter).

-I would prefer to have a faster, more engaging rotation. I would love if Grand Crusader procs mattered more. I would love to cast my finishers more often than every 15 seconds. I would be happy with a return to 4.5-second Crusader Strikes if it meant that we'd get to cast AS more often and we had some other way to generate Holy Power to keep the time between finishers short. I would love to see Holy Shield come back as an instant strike to help facilitate these changes.

-969, mechanical as it was, was short enough to have that fast-paced feel that we're lacking. I'm not suggesting we return to that model, simply that we need to retrofit the more frenetic pace of that rotation to the Holy Power system.

Part IV:

* Handling of issue by Blizzard/CMs - I think this is probably my biggest complaint about the change, so I've "saved the best for last" as it were. I tracked paladin changes intimately during beta, updating my MATLAB models with almost every beta patch. So I know for a fact that it was not a "bug" that CS generated holy power per cast. I remember when it didn't, I remember when this "bug" was intentionally implemented as a "feature," and I remember (vaguely) the now-lost-to-time beta forum post where someone, probably GC himself, stated that they felt that unreliable resource regeneration wasn't good for tanks. That sentiment was mirrored in rage normalization for Warriors. There are enough others in the community who also remember these things that I'm sure it's not my memory failing me in my old age.

I acknowledge that the design intent may have changed. Certainly, it isn't intuitive that CS grants holy power on "failure." I can see that argument, and can even agree with it. However, the initial response to the community on the part of CMs was not at all helpful; PTR bug reports were met with silence for the better part of two weeks, and only when the change hit live servers and the community erupted did we get an answer. An answer that was as much condescending as it was claryfing.

I don't expect to be coddled, but I expect to be told the truth. Telling the community that "it was a bugfix," when we know full well that it was not is tantamount to deception. If it was an intentional reverting of the mechanic by the developers, that's fine - but tell us that. Even if you can't provide detailed rationale, a simple "This is an intentional reversion of our previous decision in beta, but I don't have a detailed rationale to provide you at this time" would have gone a long way towards the community accepting this change.

I recognize that it is possible that the representatives in question simply weren't aware of this fact, and were telling the truth as far as they knew. The vast majority of the population seems to erroneously assume that Blizzard is a zerg-like structure where every member knows every detail, and interprets these sorts of announcements accordingly. That is obviously not the case. It does not, unfortunately, help matters now that the damage is done.

I would also like to emphasize that changes as significant as this should not be unannounced. This may irritate me more than others, as last-minute changes which may or may not make it live create additional workload for me, but I would have much preferred to have a week or two of notice that this was an intended change so that I could update my models accordingly.

The absence of constant feedback from Ghostcrawler is felt no more acutely than in the theorycrafting community. I and many others feel it's a shame that he's no longer interacting with us in that capacity. I'm sure the new system allows him to get more work done, and may make his life less stressful by not having to interact with the rudeness and lack of respect that has plagued Blizzard forums since Diablo II. But I think that I speak for the vast majority of the theorycrafting community when I say that we miss the direct insight into the development process that he provided, and in turn we miss him. Though I may not always agree with his impression of the state of the game, I always had a healthy appreciation for the small window he provided into the nuts and bolts of how he felt things should work. In my opinion, his presence and input was the single most important thing that Blizzard has ever done to improve the relationship between the designers and the player base. He is sorely missed.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Eneroth » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:14 pm

Doxa wrote:Oh awesome. Now they deleted the thread on the official forums.


My god they did... I kept it open on Firefox to keep seeing if a Blue would ever respond and now it's just gone. I think this in itself pisses me off more then anything else about all of this. Last night we did a total of eight bosses and even exp soft capped and having a bit more then two percent to hit this has turned into a flipping pain in the butt. :evil:
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Doxa » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:00 pm

Theck, I'd recommend you post that again in a new thread (although recommending anything to do with the Official Forums is silly). It's a good and well written explanation of the issues.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:15 pm

It was enough of a pain in the ass to format the first time, I'm not really keen to do it again.

Plus, it was up for at least a day or two, and quoted in parts by several other posters. And now it's permanently available here. I'm fairly certain that it wasn't overlooked, and if it was the right eyes will see it eventually. Nothing in it demands immediate action, so it's fine if it takes a few days to make the rounds and get noticed.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Koatanga » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:38 pm

With regard to the idea that removing the HP generation from CS/HotR "fails" was unintentional, I notice in the new patch notes for the -a patch released to day that HotR is now an all-or-nothing ability. If you hit your target, you hit everything around you. If you miss your target, you get no splash effect whatsoever. You whirl around with your mace and manage to hit absolutely nothing.

This suggests that the HP change is not in fact unintentional, and that the intenntion is to force Paladins to pick up hit and expertise because we were doing such a good job of avoiding those stats.

I believe it is Bliz' intention to make a variety of stats relavent to us in order to force us to choose between threat and defense in a more meaningful way, rather than blindly stacking Mastery.

This goes along with the idea that reforging exists to fine-tune your gear, not to reforge all of it to one stat.

I suggest that the change to HP generation was intended, and that it is entirely consistent with the current model and even consistent with what GC said about not wanting a proc-based model for tanks. If we pick up hit and expertise, we are not proc-based except for the odd parry happening due to the parry expertise cap not being reasonaby obtainable. The chance of consecutive parries of CS causing an HP generation issue once we are at dodge-cap for expertise is slim enough to be simply a way to keep us on our toes.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:56 pm

Koatanga wrote:This suggests that the HP change is not in fact unintentional, and that the intenntion is to force Paladins to pick up hit and expertise because we were doing such a good job of avoiding those stats.


The change to HotR was a buff, not a nerf. It already behaved this way on a miss. The only difference is that now when the physical component succeeds, the holy component also succeeds instead of making a second attack roll for each target.

The only reason anyone seems to have noticed is that before 4.0.6, HotR misses/dodges/parries were not recorded in the combat log, and the animation was played regardless of whether HotR succeeded or failed. With 4.0.6, they corrected the combat log and suppressed the animation on a miss/dodge/parry. Thus, everyone suddenly thought that this was new behavior, and griped about it on the forums.

That's probably what brought about their attention to the fact that HotR was making two attack rolls, and probably why the fix was made. It is unlikely to have any relation to the Holy Power change.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby mclem » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:09 pm

This suggests that the HP change is not in fact unintentional, and that the intenntion is to force Paladins to pick up hit and expertise because we were doing such a good job of avoiding those stats.


I disagree, at least if we take Zarhym's post at face value:

Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.


That sounds like we're intended to still gear without going out of our way to seek out those two stats.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby milesfromhome » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:25 pm

We're 1/12 Heroic and on Heroic Halfus last night, which was really my first serious look at how the new "no HoPo" system is playing out, I can say that we aren't gimped performance-wise... but...

It is so friggin' obnoxious, there were times I wanted to throw my mouse out the window, when I needed a WoG or a threat boost and I'm spammin' CS like a boss and NOTHING is happening. Holy moly is that annoying.

I still take, by far, the least amount of damage of all our tanks (DK, two Warriors, and me), and my self healing is still high (not nearly where it was, and about half of the DK, but about 5 times that of the Warriors), but my DPS is the lowest of all the tanks. Furthermore, I was running OOM very, very often. Filling in gaps with Cons (which I previously almost never used, I don't spec HG and I don't generally need it for AoE threat), but also filling in other gaps with AS procs and HW was burning through my mana bar something fierce.

All in all, am I still a boss at tanking? Sure. Is it less fun? Way less fun. Is it super duper annoying to run OOM and/or have nothing to press and/or not know when your finishes are coming up? Of course. Do I want to play another class because of the change? At the risk of being dramatic, I would say yes, I do. It is a very fun-sapping change. Will I actually play another class? No, but still. Pitchforks out, I say.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby milesfromhome » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:27 pm

mclem wrote:
This suggests that the HP change is not in fact unintentional, and that the intenntion is to force Paladins to pick up hit and expertise because we were doing such a good job of avoiding those stats.


I disagree, at least if we take Zarhym's post at face value:

Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.


That sounds like we're intended to still gear without going out of our way to seek out those two stats.


That almost looks as if the change was made to nerf improperly gearing Ret Paladins, and we were affected as an inconsequential "side-note." I have a hard time believing Blizzard is that short-sighted. But, I guess stranger things have happened.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Olen » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:45 pm

I have a hard time believing Blizzard is that short-sighted.


You wish you had a hard time believing it. The design team has done some wonky stuff w/o realizing the consequence of their tinkering. I always question why they don't just hire the Thecks and Aldrianas periodically to consult before they make a game change.

Remember feral dps at the front end of wrath, regemming every minor patch to keep up with Blizz' unintended buffs and nerfs?
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:49 pm

milesfromhome wrote:That almost looks as if the change was made to nerf improperly gearing Ret Paladins, and we were affected as an inconsequential "side-note."


Wouldn't be the first time.
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