CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Xenorun » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:42 pm

Pyrea wrote:tier 11 retri pants have 228 mastery and 188 hit rating. If you can get hold of the T11 tank helmet (dodge and hit iirc) you can maintain 4set with the retribution pants.


So I just put together a new set. Lets see!

1: Tier 11 Ret Legs -- 188 Hit
2: Tier 11 Prot Helm -- 113 Hit
3: Tier 11 Prot Shoulders -- 128 Hit
4: License to Slay -- 321 Hit
5: Soul Blade -- 97 Hit
6: Elementium Earthguard -- 97 Hit
7: Reforge relic -- ?? --

This would bring us to 944 Hit Rating before 7. Provided 7 gave at least 17 Hit rating (it will), you'd be set. You could then go back to using Mastery Elixirs / Food! This may end up being a much better option. Leans A LOT more towards heavy Mastery, while being hit capped. I mean, the T11 Ret Legs / Prot Shoulders / Prot Helm equate to a huge chunk of Hit, while the legs still hold a really high amount of Mastery and maintaining 4pc. I'm intrigued! Perhaps I'll buy Ret legs for this specific purpose soon :D Though I'm going to wait till T11 Helm is less desired by guildies, as we run really heavy on Conq.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fetzie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:56 pm

228 mastery rating seems like a good enough reason to buy them regardless :)
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Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:06 am

So Tuesday my guild cleared 8/12.. I ran with 1% hit, and soft-cap expertise.

Overall, I was pleased... My threat was good, rotation fairly solid (only 15% M/D/P).. few double-misses in a row


Today, I ran my traditional 1% hit, Glyph Expertise

Felt horrible. Threat was a problem (partly because of some class buffs), and I had to fight for threat well past MD wearing off -- about 30-45 seconds unless all the creepers got salv

Council pull I had 2 misses on CS off the bat, and MD was not enough to keep an enhance shammy (whom normally does 18k+ dps) from pulling agro, which also lead to a chain where our star ret paladin now also pulled agro right after my taunt faded

Most of this happened at the MD-fall-off, as my threat was a lot lower (After a DP/Inq/Exo/J/AS Opener, CS (hit), (filler), CS(Miss), (Filler), CS (miss)... etc.)


I'm gonna have to rethink a no-expertise build (pre-glyph).. I don't think *HIT* is necessary, but a bit of expertise would smooth out the rotation for the least possible sacrifice in avoidance (and I'd personally value a more reliable rotation with 10-12% less misses better then 2% dodge.... at least until I see numbers making me think otherwise).. Overall I'm displeased with the change and hope it gets fixed, but I'm kinda invested at this point in the expansion as the OT (or MT on single-target fights)

We actually ran with a strong MD, so can't blame it on a bad hunter MD like I usually can if something like this happens -- though that's usually at t=6-9, not at t=30


My case may be the extreme though, I literally have *NO* hit/exp outside of my crafted shield (1%) and the glyph... simply getting soft cap Tuesday made a huge difference..
Edit: May also be the buffed classes are getting used to new rotations.. Our Boomkin jumped 15%, shadow priest about the same, and ret was doing silly crazy threat
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Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Dreamstar » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:53 am

Sur-Pseudo wrote: and ret was doing silly crazy threat


I'm also noticing this from a retri p.o.v. I currently run ret in my guild raids as we are over populated with tanks and before the patch I was doing 'ok' DPS, usually around 3rd/4th out of 5/6 DPSers and had no issue with threat. However since the 4.0.6 patch I'm pretty constantly topping the charts beaten only by a shadow priest and a rogue on occasion but my threat is rediculous. The best way I have found to deal with this at the minute is to wait 4or5 seconds after the tank pulls to begin DPS and use HoS on cooldown. I certainly can't open the fight with my CDs such as AW, GoaK an Zeal if I get a lucky dp proc any more.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fenris » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:37 am

Daily hotfixes
# The area-of-effect attack of Hammer of the Righteous no longer has a chance to miss secondary targets when the primary attack hits the paladin's target. If the primary attack of Hammer of the Righteous fails to hit the target due to miss/dodge/parry/block, no enemies will be affected by the area-of-effect attack. Rogues who are under Cloak of Shadows, however, are able to resist this damage.


Even block? :?
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby mclem » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:59 am

So is that saying that the HotR behaviour is also intended and not a bug? That's seriously wrong.

But wait!

There's the solution then. Fighting a boss, need to generate Holy Power? Just HotR a nearby critter instead! Boss gets hit *and* you get HP out of the deal.

There's something *very* weird going on when the right approach is to attack the wrong target.


Edit: Indeed, I would not be surprised if it turns out that the most reliable threat rotation is as follows:

Tank add + boss (or at least have add tanked near you)

HotR add
Judge boss
HotR add
AS add (if available)
HotR add
SotR boss.

I think it's fair to say that that's past the previously mentioned measure of "too complex"!
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:15 am

This is a buff to HotR, not a nerf. The holy component has always been able to miss even when the physical component succeeded. It looks like they've changed it to no longer make a second attack roll for the holy component.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Doxa » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:45 am

This entire situation is too strange to be a conscience decision on Blizzard's part. The failure to communicate on the issue is even more frustrating and makes me thing Blizzard was caught a bit off-guard on the impact of the change.

While it hasn't bugged me too much as prot I finally spec'd ret last night with my crappy dungeon blue gear and JP gear and wow this is debilitating for ret (esp. with dungeon / rep / JP gear that lacks +hit).
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby mclem » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:17 am

theckhd wrote:This is a buff to HotR, not a nerf. The holy component has always been able to miss even when the physical component succeeded. It looks like they've changed it to no longer make a second attack roll for the holy component.


It's more that I always suspected the "no splash if you don't hit" portion to be a bug - since it seems somewhat counter-intuitive, at least as far as functionality is concerned - so it's a bit of a surprise to see it acknowledged as intentional.

Of course, it's rare that you'd use it on boss-level mobs, and it's much easier to hit the sort of things you *would* use it on, which is why I added the followup point; the fact that it might be more reliable to build threat on a boss by *not* attacking it directly.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Njall » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:33 am

I suspect this has been covered in another thread but what impact does this have on running Seal of Insight instead of Seal of Truth. Does the loss of HPS from the lack of Holy Power offset the use of SoI.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby ironpants » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:35 am

Doxa wrote:While it hasn't bugged me too much as prot I finally spec'd ret last night with my crappy dungeon blue gear and JP gear and wow this is debilitating for ret (esp. with dungeon / rep / JP gear that lacks +hit).


If you wanna get used to gaps in your rotation, well, playing ret is the right thing to do.

And the whole change feels inconsistent to me too, dodged/parried attacks not generating a resource seems not to fit in their overall design intention.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:42 am

Njall wrote:I suspect this has been covered in another thread but what impact does this have on running Seal of Insight instead of Seal of Truth. Does the loss of HPS from the lack of Holy Power offset the use of SoI.


I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I'm pretty sure whatever it was can be answered by taking a look at the output of the rotation simulations in the MATLAB thread. I've calculated DPS and self-healing for a variety of talent/glyph/rotation combinations. From that you should be able to figure out how much self-healing WoG and SoI account for with a little subtraction.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fenris » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:09 am

theckhd wrote:This is a buff to HotR, not a nerf. The holy component has always been able to miss even when the physical component succeeded. It looks like they've changed it to no longer make a second attack roll for the holy component.

Yes,it's a buff mostly,the only thing i'm not sure is if atm the nova part procs on block or not

I was sure it did,but maybe i was wrong
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dazhbog » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:03 am

Fenris wrote:
theckhd wrote:This is a buff to HotR, not a nerf. The holy component has always been able to miss even when the physical component succeeded. It looks like they've changed it to no longer make a second attack roll for the holy component.

Yes,it's a buff mostly,the only thing i'm not sure is if atm the nova part procs on block or not

I was sure it did,but maybe i was wrong


Whenever they post "miss/dodge/parry/block" in reference to a failed attack, I read it as a full block, not a partial. I could be insane and/or overly optimistic though.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fenris » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:14 am

I'm just used to be pessimistic :lol:
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