CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Olen » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:01 am

I'm actually going to buy the Ret pants and see how that plays out for certain gearsets.


I'm making my blockcap set atm so I have rough numbers on CTC. Without gems or leg chant, the 3 legs I'm looking at provide the following:
Legguards of the Unseeing - 1.17% Parry, 1.60% Block = 2.77% CTC (reforged Parry to Mastery, left Exp)
T11 Prot legs - 0.93% Parry, 0.90% Dodge, 0.94% Block = 2.77% CTC (reforged Parry to Dodge)
T11 Ret legs - 0.35% Parry, 0.36% Dodge, 2.86% Block = 3.569% CTC (reforged Hit to Dodge)

These numbers are based off my current Dodge/Parry for DR and take into account the STR on the item as providing Parry. The actual %'s will vary just slightly for your DR table.

I'm considering 7.41% total CTC from the following buffs:
0.98% extra CTC from Tia's Grace solid proc
1.13% CTC from Mastery food
2.82% CTC from Mastery elixir
2.48% CTC from horn/bshout
These numbers I think will be just a hair inflated because the rates were calc'd individually.

As a progress update, I only need another 309 Mastery Rating to hit cap. I think I can get it once Don Rodrigo's neck shows up and I buy the ret T11 legs.

/derail over

You don't need to reforge all your crap to hold threat in 4.06. Just watch Omen in the early stages like you should have been doing. The rotation just requires more attention now and is less fun to play. Losing the ability to plan your next WoG, or SotR on a target switch, is the worst part. The simplest example I can think of is the no guarantee on when you'll have 3 HoPo to heal someone on Chimaeron.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fetzie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:16 am

You don't need 3 HoPo to heal someone to safety at chimaeron, 1 or 2 are plenty, they only need to be above 10k life.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby sculder » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:17 am

Pyrea wrote:You don't need 3 HoPo to heal someone to safety at chimaeron, 1 or 2 are plenty, they only need to be above 10k life.


except when you're tanking.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Petrus » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:19 am

I already tended to use hit food, as it was a small amount of Mastery I'd miss, but now I've reforged most of my gear as well because of the necessity that I be able to interrupt on some bosses. If I miss, it'll hurt, and me being able to interrupt takes a lot of responsibility off of my (occasional) melee dpsers.

And when you're tanking on Chimaeron, it gets a bit rough once you've got some Breaks on you, but I can see where you're coming from.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Mcduffie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:28 am

Awbade and I both have 8% hit and are at twenty-something expertise. We do 9-10k dps per fight. That's up from about 6k before the patch. I'm not dying any faster, and the bosses actually go down really quick. We had to actually slow down after a wipe on Maloriak, because we're not used to pushing him that fast.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Olen » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:39 am

You don't need 3 HoPo to heal someone to safety at chimaeron, 1 or 2 are plenty, they only need to be above 10k life.


My most-frequent target is the Double Attack tank. If I have a timer for Massacre and a timer for a 3 HoPo WoG, then I know how much I can spare prior to. I no longer have the guaranteed timer for WoG. But it's a moot point I guess.

The rotation just is not as much fun to play anymore. No planned 3 HoPo and blank GCDs. I'm a button smasher, I don't care for not smashing on something.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Eneroth » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:01 am

Eneroth wrote:These are my stats so far un-buffed:

Health: 159401

Armor: 35579
Dodge: 9.89%
Parry: 15.94%
Block: 49.14%
Total: 79.98%

Hit: 1.33%
Exp: 4 (14 with Seal of Truth)


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... oth/simple



Okay so I went ahead and reforged my gear again today to go more for our "threat" stats and this is what I came up with.

Health: 159401 (same)
Dodge: 9.77% (down .12%)
Parry: 14.33 (down 1.69%)
Block: 48.89 (down .25%)
Total: 78% (down 1.98%)

Hit: 2.20% (up .87%)
Exp: 16 (26 with Seal of Truth)


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... oth/simple

So all in all I lost 1.98% avoidance to gain my Exp soft cap, as well as increasing my hit by .87%. I spent a lot of time reforging a lot of gear, and switching back and forth between bracers, and had to go back to the faction ones.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Faro » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:25 am

I figured I'd just echo the sentiment in the thread, make another set. Most fights you'll be fine with just a good salv, hell, sometimes you don't even need that. But for something like... Heroic Maloriak's add duty (which we were working on last night) you need to make sure to have an expertise set with some hit rating on it. I took dragon bone warhelm with a 40 expertise gem, a second pair of gravitational pull gloves with a hit gem/enchant, a soul blade with the mastery reforged into expertise, and a fluid death with the hit reforged.

That set should be more than enough and you give up minimum survivability for it. And if you gemmed mastery before there's no HP loss :).

I'd imagine the fights you'd use this set for are few and far between. It needs to be a requirement that you have to pick up adds and burn them very fast, which leaves like, heroic maloriak, heroic cho, heroic sinestra, late p2 heroic al'akir. Maybe halfus, but in practice I had 0 problem picking up whelps+time this week. Possibly luck, possibly the nerf to mages cleaving off the boss.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Kihra » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:52 pm

I reforged avoidance into Expertise to get to the soft cap with SoT up, and it's much more pleasant than before. The amount of avoidance I lost is pretty negligible, and the misses/parries are few enough that it doesn't drive me crazy. While I know I didn't *have* to do this, it's kind of a quality of life issue for me. Maybe if I were block capped I would care about having to give up that cap, but I don't really view being block capped as much of a requirement so far. I have Symbiotic Worm's proc to cap me whenever my health dips below 35% anyway.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Vort » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:56 pm

It feels so clunky after last nights raid. Right off the bat on several encounters I pretty much had to chain taunt spam because of 0 holy power generationm, when vengeance caught up it was fine but until it actually gets there the entire rotation has more holes in it than a nicely aged Jarslberg. So many times out of habit I was going to SotR or WoG and realizing I was still on 0 holy power because of the RNG of it all. I noticed Holy Shield doesn't have a 100% uptime either, and I'm pretty sure one of the posts in relation to the change to holy shield was along the lines of -

"We felt like it was too much of a chore keeping Holy Shield up all the time, so now it is refreshed upon using Holy Power."

I can't recall the exact post but this reverts it back to being somewhat of a chore. There were a couple of times that Holy Shield dropped off due to having insufficient Holy Power to use. Looking at logs it looks like it's downtime is anywhere from 5-10% for me with around 2% hit and 13 Expertise (Glyphed). Quite often I was forcing myself to use 2 or sometimes even 1 charge of Holy Power simply to keep my main buff from falling off. Granted we can use 1 or 2 charges but it really isn't optimal and I don't see why it should be encouraged. It's been a long time since I played my rogue but I'm pretty sure back in Vanilla we rarely used to use a finisher without it having 5 Combo Points.
Last edited by Vort on Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby towelliee » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:57 pm

I ask myself the following questions after 4.0.6 came out

1 - Do I have a hunter in my raid every night?

A - Yes I have 2

2 - Do I have a Rogue in my raid every night?

A - Yes I have 2

3 - Is Vengeance still the same as before 4.0.6? By same I mean OP

A - YES!

If your answers to these questions are similar to mine then don't change a thing :)
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:14 pm

towelliee wrote:3 - Is Vengeance still the same as before 4.0.6? By same I mean OP

A - YES!

If your answers to these questions are similar to mine then don't change a thing :)

The issue that I have with this change isn't related to threat generation, though. It's related to the breaks in my rotation and the delay of abilities caused by those breaks.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:25 pm

Can paladins still tank? Of course.

Is it as much fun? Yes for some, decidedly not for others. RNG based tanking is, frankly, retarded. There's no amount of polishing that will change the intrinsic shitty core.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Xenorun » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:22 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Can paladins still tank? Of course.

Is it as much fun? Yes for some, decidedly not for others. RNG based tanking is, frankly, retarded. There's no amount of polishing that will change the intrinsic shitty core.


So I realized that I went apeshit. The whole gear changing was a bit excessive (to say the least). So I went back to my old survivability setup. In the end, I imagine it'll be better even if its just a mindset thing.

I quoted you though, as I agree completely and I wanted to emphasize this. In the end, all this change really does is annoy us as tanks (and I imagine Ret is plenty annoyed as well). I'm just going to assume Blizz is being completely retarded, and this change will get reverted, or tweaked in some manner shortly. It just seems so asinine to go about it this way.

And to everyone that keeps bringing threat to this equation, I cant imagine why you keep bringing it up. Missing the occasional HP charge is not significant as far as threat is concerned, especially true with Vengeance and Rogues / Hunters. The issue is primarily (at least, imo) a less fluid rotation and possibly less WoG usage (which IS significant).

Also for anyone that is in the same situation as me, being in a 10 man guild and possibly a prime interrupter for key fights, I thought out a Hit set that seems reasonable and caps you. It may not be the best set, so perhaps you can help me fine tune it?

1: License to Slay -- 321 Hit -- 1650 Valor Points
2: Tier 11 Shoulders -- 128 Hit -- Token from Cho'Gall
3: Soul Blade -- 97 Hit -- BoE trash drop (Bastion of Twilight)
4: Elementium Earthguard -- 97 Hit -- Blacksmithing crafted
5: Elixir of Impossible Accuracy -- 225 Hit -- Alchemy
6: Grilled Dragon -- 90 Hit -- Cooking
7: Relic reforged -- ?? --

If you discount #7, this gives us 958 Hit Rating. Unless I am mistaken, the cap is 961 Hit Rating. The particular reason why I made this set, and chose this pieces was to maintain 4pc Tier, which is just freakishly good for certain HM encounters. Again, unsure if this is the "best" Hit setup, but I think it'd be really solid. Situational though, but for someone like me, where on 10HM Halfus I have to interrupt primarily, it'll be very valuable.

So yeah, thanks for all of the input everyone, its much appreciated. I'm just going to deal with low Hit / Exp and build 2 sets.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fetzie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:48 pm

tier 11 retri pants have 228 mastery and 188 hit rating. If you can get hold of the T11 tank helmet (dodge and hit iirc) you can maintain 4set with the retribution pants.
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