CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodge

Postby Eneroth » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:07 am

Arianne wrote:I lost about 3% dodge to get expertise capped and about 3% hit. Didn't have room to reforge anything else and don't want to regem out of mastery. We'll see how it goes tonight. >:|


So how would you rate it? By removing some avoidance to pick up Hit and Expertise? I hate the idea of doing this. So I changed the enchant on my shield to the shield spike and placed avalanche on my weapon. Hopefully this changes will help out as well.

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Arincia » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:28 am

I ran with only 18 exp (10 glyph and 3 racial) and .5% hit and it seemed to be just like normal before this patch. Sometimes i had to use 2 HP WoG but since it scales linearly its not as big a issue. 18 Exp+.5% hit means i only missed 20% the time. With MD/TOT at the start and dps watching their initial threat it shouldn't be a issue (gogo BoP/Sanc). Just have to be slightly more mindful about future HP use if you have to target swap or anything else then before. If you didn't use SoR much before then this doesn't effect you at all for threat and barely cuts into your self healing.

*BTW way i got that was reforged weapon (hit>Exp) shield (parry>exp) and relic (dodge>exp) with 346 neck (56 dodge>exp) and human racial. Id think getting at least enough exp to get 25% miss on combat table is fine cause otherwise 0 hit/exp 9% chance (over estimate) of missing 2 in a row but at 25% its only 5% which SOT glyph does anyways. I'll end up dropping the exp on neck in the future when i get a neck upgrade but i'll be fine when that happens as well.

TLDR if you held threat fine before this patch you'll hold it fine after. Just use SoT with glyph and learn to live with some unlucky streaks at random.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Ezharon » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:41 am

I've got only 2.25% hit and 10 expertise glyphed and my only concern is not with my threat (which is still fine) but that rebuke miss sometimes so I can't be considered as a reliable interrupter (but this doesn't change from 4.0.3).
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby mclem » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:15 am

Anecdotal evidence from my first actual raid with the changes:

The only major change I made was to default to Seal of Truth over Seal of Insight (thereby getting the hefty expertise bonus). I also made sure that the DPS were aware that threat might be a problem at the start of the fight, if I did the initial tanking. I have 2.75% hit and 4 expertise before the glyph bonus.

Halfus: Tanked the first drake to be killed (swapped to Halfus shortly before it died to relieve the mortal strike debuff). No problem with threat, although that was a L87 mob, not a boss.

Valiona + Theralion: Tanked Valiona (we use two tanks for the fight, mainly so we have something for another tank to do at this point). No major problem with threat, although I did have to give one of the DPS a gentle warning early on. Had I been more alert, salv would have done the trick.

Ascendant Council: Lots of attempts on this, no kill (progression boss). Flubbed one of the pulls, lost aggro but that's entirely my fault. One attempt I did lose aggro due to an unlucky string of misses; the only time it caused a problem all night.

Overall, it's potentially an issue, but I didn't feel all that threatened by it, and didn't have to make any gear changes to accomodate it. When I get more used to it I'll start swapping to SoI once I have a reasonable threat foundation to build on... I'm sure there's going to be a free GCD somewhere that I can use!

It is, however, more irritating. In particular, I'm often *not* noticing a CS miss and instead of using a filler for its cooldown, I keep hammering CS. I need a plan to fix that.


Edit: From reading the 'word on crusader strike not generating hopo' thread, someone needs to point out that if the sole means of generating a resource is cooldown-locked, then that cooldown inherently becomes part of the resource, and if we lose the cooldown, that amounts to losing a resource.
Last edited by mclem on Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby edsdame » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:24 am

To be honest, I reforged my gear to cap hit and expertise before patch, and I am planning to keep it. The biggest reason is a "selfish" one: I am offtanking for a warrior. He did more dps, and more threat and I feel I am getting more and more behind. On the other hand I hate to see the dodge/miss/parry messages.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Xenorun » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:37 am

I need help as I dont know what to do with these changes. I went a lil crazy when I first heard of this change, and swapped gear, regemmed and reforged. So bear with me as I ramble.

I lost ~2.5% Dodge
I lost ~1.5% Parry
I lost ~4.5% Block
I also lost some amount of stamina. Nothing huge, but I removed all of my Parry / Stam gems for Hit / Exp ones :(

I gained ~7% Hit
I gained ~1 Expertise

I realize that Exp >>>> Hit as a threat (and now a HP generating) stat. However, we recently had our Resto Shaman swap mains to a Disc / Holy Priest, and we lost our prime interrupter for 10HM Halfus. So I reforged to Hit and became the prime interrupter (<3 Rebuke!!!). For that fight alone, I did alright I thought regarding how much damage I took and whatnot. However for, say, 10HM Chimaeron.. This may get bad. From everything I've witnessed regarding that fight, I need as much Block / Dodge / Parry as possible, and yet here I am reforging said stats off to get, essentially, threat stats. So I'm torn, I really am. I hate, hate, hate the fact that my rotation has become mega unpredictable with low Hit / Exp. And yet I hate ignoring survival stats.

So this is where I need help. Its not really feasible for me atm to get numerous sets of gear for the occasion, though this would be optimal. So what should I do? Pretty much what I'm wondering is, how good is a RELIABLE WoG every 9 seconds (or shield slam, if the situation demands it) compared to higher "avoidance" stats? Since I'm up late and cant sleep, I'll make a ghetto pro / con list!

Pros for Hit / Exp:
No more missed shields flying all over the damn place.
Much better snap threat (our only real concern for threat).
More consistent HP generation.
More DPS (this can matter sometimes).
Reliable interrupting (especially useful in a 10 man guild)

Pros for Survivability stacking:
You live longer.
You possibly save healer mana.
Most HM fights demand the highest possible gearing you can manage.
Umm.. You live longer!

Sorry for the rambling, I know this is surely a bit much, but I truly am at a loss. The upside is, if we end up finding out that going for Hit / Exp cap / soft-cap (respectively) are the new "way to go", I think in the end I'll end up enjoying it. I really dont like seeing miss / dodge / parry spam :p
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby ironpants » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:15 am

You shouldn't be care more about your hit and exp as you did before 4.06. As I said in my first post this change "could" have impacts on our threat generation. And at the beginning of a boss fight, it could, if you have a few misses in a row, so tell your dps to take care. After vengeance sets in, everything is fine.

I personally do have some hit rating but thats why iam in a 10man raid where i have to interrupt and iam just feeling more comfortable with it.

Indeed i noticed an increase in my dps because of the improved CS damage combined with our t11 p2 bonus. AOE tanking is also easier because of the faster stacking censure debuff.

Yes, the rotation is not in flow as it was before but after testing it two days, this is something i can live with.

But the way this change was introduced is not ok in my eyes. I do think, that they will change it so, that only missed CS/HotR do not generate HoPo but parried/dodged do generate our resource. Iam also hoping that a missed style will result in a CD reset but i don't think this will happen.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fuin » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:28 am

I had a first raid yesterday (EU, so it was 1st day with new patch) and I must say, god this suck ass. If you dont land 1 CS I can somehow live with it, but missing 2 of them, and being forced to wait 3 seconds sucks, well iI can ofc use lets ay holy wrath earlier to fill the gap, but still it doesnt change anything because this gap will come again when it would be time for holy wrath in normal circumstances. It's not the problem of threat, we can keep it up no problem, just the feeling is ... lame, and thats ofc my opinion, some may like it. Also i dont like healing spec (althou my single target prot has both wog talents) I use it only in dangerous situations, and that change screwes uhm consistency in our rotation that I like(d).
Also there is blue post on MMO, at which i rofled
Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.

Okay, if you dont reward classes for mising their attacks, why the f*** (sorry, just had to) are Rogues, Ferals, DKs, Warriors gaining back their Energy/Focus/Runes/Runic Power/Rage? Cmon that's just dumb.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Linkie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:20 am

Xenorun wrote:Stuff


Change all your gear back to the way it was before.

If you need to be on interrupt duty, make a 2nd hit set to switch to in those fights.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:01 am

Linkie wrote:
Xenorun wrote:Stuff


Change all your gear back to the way it was before.

If you need to be on interrupt duty, make a 2nd hit set to switch to in those fights.



Def drop hit cap -- It's way too expensive for the benefit (900 points for 8%, vs. 480 points for 13% from expertise)
Expertise soft cap (16+Glyph) -- more debatable, I personally like the 13% reduced dodge/parry in my rotation, and helps my snap threat which has been suffering without a good MD/TotT in my raid
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dreamstar » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:15 am

Regarding the Hit/Exp options for us prots now I got to thinking about the DPS trinkets that are available (mostly because I have an active retribution off spec). With some quick use of excel I've come up with the following as possible options, keeping Expertise as the primary stat to obtain and keeping within HC instances and normal mode raids;

We have Heart of Rage from Chimaeron an Magnetite Mirrior from Stonecore hc.

Heart of Rage has 20.6 expertise, 366 strength, 71.25 parry.
Code: Select all
Expertise 321 = 10.6 Rating (goSoT +10)
Strength  366 (1926str for 20sec averaged) which would equate to 71.25 parry.

Magnetite Mirror has 19.4 expertise, 285 strength, 71.25 parry.
Code: Select all
Expertise 285 = 9.4 rating (goSoT +10)
Strength  285 on use which would equate to 71.25 parry.


By reforging current trinkets we could swap some stat for expertise or hit rating, for my theories I simply used throngus' Finger and Porcelain Crab.
Reforged Throngus' Finger has 171 parry, 114 stat = 0.94% Hit or 3.79 expertise and would still generate 1710 dodge for 12sec when you parry.
Reforged Porcelain Crab would have 171 dodge, 114 stat = 0.94% hit or 3.79 expertise and would still generate 1710 mastery for 10sec on melee hit.

There are of course many other options such as License to Slay, the JC's Demon Panther etc but I don't have time to go through these right now however I can do this later should someone wish to see the results, but anyway the point of this theory was to see how strong DPS trinkets could be in a prot set up and depending on what trinkets you would be replacing I think there is strong grounds for considering them when we need extra hit or expertise.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:20 am

I'm actually going to buy the Ret pants and see how that plays out for certain gearsets.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Vanifae » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:29 am

fuzzygeek wrote:I'm actually going to buy the Ret pants and see how that plays out for certain gearsets.

I won't lie I kind of want the Ret tier pants for my main tank spec.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Aerron » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:30 am

I've also added the +Exp rating food to my raid buff selection. Usually went with Dodge or Parry, but figure since they have DR anyway, may as well use the +90 Exp to help out with this issue.

GoSoT + Human racial + little bits of Exp I can't reforge away on my gear + food buff = good to go.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dreamstar » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:57 am

Aerron wrote:I've also added the +Exp rating food to my raid buff selection. Usually went with Dodge or Parry, but figure since they have DR anyway, may as well use the +90 Exp to help out with this issue.

GoSoT + Human racial + little bits of Exp I can't reforge away on my gear + food buff = good to go.


Foods are certainly an option but I don't feel the +90 is enough to warrant it as I use the Mastery food. However depending how much we need the expertise in a situational scenario, and possibly a long term, I'm considering using Expertise flask instead of Mastery flask though I'm still waiting on some aditional data before I definitivly take this as a long term option.
Last edited by Dreamstar on Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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