CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:24 pm

So I just finished our evening's raiding.

anecdotal info inc:

I didn't notice a massive breakdown of threat generation or general sky-falling-on-heads. Probably due to when CS crits i see numbers bigger than 25k, 324% weapon damage and 14k AP from vengeance is simply insane IMO. I reforged away 2% dodge to get 3% hit and 19 expertise with the glyph. Before I was at 12 expertise and 1.something % hit. I did a random heroic before reforging and didn't notice much difference either (except that my damage had gone up)

It really isn't as bad as some people were thinking, or as bad as the predictable hysteria on the official board would indicate. As it is right now, I can live with the change. If it turns out to be made in error for whatever reason I won't be complaining when it gets reverted but for the moment at least it isn't too bad.

plus points after the patch: the mobs having 5 stacks of censure instantly, an interrupt and our retri pala is doing awesome dps.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Kimina » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:35 pm

theckhd wrote:
Sur-Pseudo wrote:Theck,
My math stinks (like, really bad), but I'm curious about Soft cap expertise effect on Holy power or Healing-- e.g. does a 14% reduction in dodge/parry come out ahead or behind a 2% avoidance loss

As expertise to soft cap is the *most* efficient use of stat points to effect holy power, I was curious if only going to that step would have a meaningful effect on the ability to use WOG throughout a fight (so with proper seals)... or if it had an meaningful effect on DPS (Mainly a concern in my side 10 man) compared to the 2% avoidance which my healers could probably handle -- especially if it let me use WoG or DPS when either is an issue


I worked this out over at EJ and reposted it upthread somewhere. Point for point, 1 point of expertise rating provides something like 0.8 HPS, while 1 point of avoidance rating reduces damage taken by 1.2 DPS and 1 point of mastery rating is about 1.5 DPS. 1 point of hit rating is around half of expertise, so ~0.4 HPS.


Mastery being so strong and the fact that is does not suffer from DR it would seem obvious to me if attempting to pillage threat stats through reforging we need to look else where. My question would be do we look at maybe sacrificing Parry since strength on gear out weights the availability of Dodge? I'm with most of you on this. While it's not a game changer, it is annoying to have that down time in the rotation.

Is there common ground, perhaps a break even point where it won't seem so choppy with HP generation? I would think attempting to reach both soft caps is just crazy considering how much you would lose in mitigation/avoidance stats.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:48 pm

theckhd wrote:
Sur-Pseudo wrote:Theck,
My math stinks (like, really bad), but I'm curious about Soft cap expertise effect on Holy power or Healing-- e.g. does a 14% reduction in dodge/parry come out ahead or behind a 2% avoidance loss

As expertise to soft cap is the *most* efficient use of stat points to effect holy power, I was curious if only going to that step would have a meaningful effect on the ability to use WOG throughout a fight (so with proper seals)... or if it had an meaningful effect on DPS (Mainly a concern in my side 10 man) compared to the 2% avoidance which my healers could probably handle -- especially if it let me use WoG or DPS when either is an issue


I worked this out over at EJ and reposted it upthread somewhere. Point for point, 1 point of expertise rating provides something like 0.8 HPS, while 1 point of avoidance rating reduces damage taken by 1.2 DPS and 1 point of mastery rating is about 1.5 DPS. 1 point of hit rating is around half of expertise, so ~0.4 HPS.


Sorry Theck,

When I read it last night I didn't think the calculations also worked for 0% hit, 16/26 expertise... I read it as lumping X hit + Y expertise = Z HPS, didn't think it would follow through with *only* expertise soft cap too (which is where the largest chunk of avoidance loss comes from)...

Told you my math = bad
Last edited by Sur-Pseudo on Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:00 pm

It´smore or less just a change that annoys and doesn´t have much impact. There is actually no reason for it to remain this way, probably nt much reason to change it back so it will probably stay. Stupid decision like this whole interrupt issue. Just because.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:01 pm

Kimina wrote:Mastery being so strong and the fact that is does not suffer from DR it would seem obvious to me if attempting to pillage threat stats through reforging we need to look else where. My question would be do we look at maybe sacrificing Parry since strength on gear out weights the availability of Dodge? I'm with most of you on this. While it's not a game changer, it is annoying to have that down time in the rotation.

Is there common ground, perhaps a break even point where it won't seem so choppy with HP generation? I would think attempting to reach both soft caps is just crazy considering how much you would lose in mitigation/avoidance stats.


Personally I kept the Dodge & Parry rating balance theme, and took parry down for expertise to soft cap, and unforged my crafted shield (which is just over 1% hit).. putting me at 1% Hit, softcap expertise...

I was basically perfect before though, 0 hit, Glyph Exp, with 14.03% dodge, 14.06 parry, so I lost 3% avoidance out of it since expertise soft cap costs ~2.4-2.6% avoidance

In effect, that 3% loss felt worth it as I think it made the rotation feel smoother (14.5% miss chance vs. 25/29%)... I'm not sure if I'd go for hit cap as well though -- Even without MD/TotT I felt I could still hold initial threat decently with the higher expertise values... and the end result of ~1-in-7 misses wasn't very detrimental to my rotation -- one every 3rd cycle missed
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Beefchief » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:18 pm

This whole decision just smells like a large development team just not communicating with each other and pushing a change through without thinking about the tanking part of the equation. I don't think this is Blizzard going "Pally threat too high, nerf! This good way do it" since every tank is experiencing high threat (which is thanks to Mr. Vengeance).

I can see Blizzard reversing this and simultaneously dragging down our threat in another fashion, whether it is a Vengeance nerf or something else.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:32 pm

Yeah it´s probably just some screw up, someone decided to cover it and no one wants to step forward and say it´s a mistake. Instead someone invented this story of a bug or some half informed designer went the same route like this rogue in the forum, What? They generate HP even if they miss, totally unfair, rogues have to hit for combo points, this can´t be on principle. They probably reverse it in patch 4.1 or introduce something to fill the gaps inbetween because people complain they have large holes in their rotation.

Usual kind of screw up in a bigger company.
Last edited by Dantriges on Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby vexryn » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:41 pm

Malthrax wrote:
baneoftruth wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:I doubt this was a Ret Paladin aimed change, baneoftruth, since they're expected to hit cap, soft expertise cap, and mostly stand behind.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a little free Expertise added in the Prot tree, but it's unlikely with the Glyph of SoT still in game.

The tone that I got from this post was that the change was geared toward ret, and any consequences that it held for prot was just collateral damage. But that's my interpretation...

:-/

My interpretation of the "tone" was that of Zarhym simply being an overly dismissive jackhole.



What ret paladin isn't hit capped already? It was already the #1 top priority secondary stat, before and after the patch. This change should be completely irrelevant for every ret paladin except those who are leveling or JUST dinged 85 with very insufficient gear.

It's a lasting and meaningful change to prot paladins, especially in progression, and has ZERO impact on any ret paladin who's showing up for a raid at any level of content. The idea that this was primarily a "ret" fix that splashed into prot seems, frankly, even more absurd.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Steve » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:24 pm

Actually, the change effects Retribution PvP most, at least from an in-game balance perspective. If they decide to revert the change, I suspect that will be the reason why.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:31 pm

vexryn wrote:What ret paladin isn't hit capped already? It was already the #1 top priority secondary stat, before and after the patch. This change should be completely irrelevant for every ret paladin except those who are leveling or JUST dinged 85 with very insufficient gear.

It's a lasting and meaningful change to prot paladins, especially in progression, and has ZERO impact on any ret paladin who's showing up for a raid at any level of content. The idea that this was primarily a "ret" fix that splashed into prot seems, frankly, even more absurd.

It's quite likely it wasn't aimed at anything, and the fact that PVE ret wouldn't really be affected probably flew over Zarhym's head. My guess is that they wanted similar behavior with other power generating techniques.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Eneroth » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:44 pm

So what have we come up with? As in what is the magic numbers that we need to keep when we are tanking raids? These are my stats so far un-buffed:

Health: 159401

Armor: 35579
Dodge: 9.89%
Parry: 15.94%
Block: 49.14%
Total: 79.98%

Hit: 1.33%
Exp: 4 (14 with Seal of Truth)


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... oth/simple

Of course before this patch I had no issues keeping aggro in a raid, and being able to tank switch with no issues. As of right now I am a bit worried on how all of this is going to work out for me tomorrow. Any information you guys will be able to give would be great, or if we can come down to how we need to re-forge our gear now as well. It hurts that I have to loose some avoidance to pick up other stats before of the "fix".
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:59 pm

You will be fine, this whole thing has got blown totally out of proportion, mainly because blizzard tried to hide/not acknowledge it, then passed it off as a bugfix when it really wasn't a bug fix because HoPo was working as intended since it was made to be so back in beta. If it had been in a patchnote 4 weeks ago chances are it wouldn't have sparked such a debate.

If anything my threat was better tonight than it was on monday.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Vort » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:02 pm

The whole change should just be reverted tbh, but knowing blizz they won't want to do something so simple. They could however, give our Vindication talent something along the lines of -

"In addition, whenever your Crusader Strike or Hammer of the Righteous is parried or dodged you gain 1 charge of Holy Power. This effect cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds."

They removed the HoJ EDIT interrupt effect from Vindication so why not replace it with something useful, and you can't call it a massive buff if it has some form of ICD. At least then there would be somewhat less RNG, I had to use 1 or 2 Holy Power WoG's several times on bosses just to keep holy shield up, that just isn't right. Had several times where 2 or more CS's missed/parried/dodged in a row.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Arianne » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:35 pm

I lost about 3% dodge to get expertise capped and about 3% hit. Didn't have room to reforge anything else and don't want to regem out of mastery. We'll see how it goes tonight. >:|
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby inthedrops » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:30 pm

I don't feel it's worth changing my stats at the moment. I'm fine being occasionally sketchy in threat for a bit longer at the start.
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