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CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Meloree » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:45 pm

Kihra wrote:I'd be interested in knowing which of these gives the most self-healing with the assumption that all 10 points of Glyph of SoT would count towards the soft Exp cap (reduce both Dodge and Parry chance).

(1) Seal of Truth coupled with Glyph of Seal of Truth and WoG spam.
(2) Seal of Insight coupled with Glyph of Seal of Insight and WoG spam.

(1) will give you the most HPS from WoG, but at the cost of Seal of Insight. (2) will cause you to have fewer WoG, but you heal from SoI. You also get the bonus from the Glyph.

Also curious about:

(3) Seal of Insight coupled with WoG spam, but no Glyph of SoI. Obviously this is the same as (2) but without the healing bonus, but it's a common scenario for fights where you care about threat at various points during the fight (leading you to not re-glyph).


So, with 0 hit and expertise, you have 8%+14.5%+6.5% chance to whiff with CS, or 71% chance to hit. With GoSoT, that's 76% chance to hit, a 7% increase in HP generation, and therefore WoG healing, by running SoT. One SoI proc is somewhere in the ballpark of 15% of a WoG. Therefore, even without the glyph, SoI is always more healing than SoT with glyph.

Of course, that's just napkin math, but it seems fairly clean.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sedona » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:50 pm

It's funny that this should happen as I was just complaining that I didn't like the fact that I felt like I had to strip my gear of hit and exp. (I didn't. I couldn't bring myself to do it. In my current content, my survivability isn't in question. If I were a progression tank, I may think differently. My philosophy is that as long as I am not troubling my healers, I must be doing something right.) But the problem is that this "bug fix" doesn't even make those stats important. The only thing that made hit important was us gaining Rebuke. Even still that's mainly for a 10m tank that can't rely on others to interrupt (AKA me. I stopped PuGing until this patch).

This "bug fix" to me seems like a poor catch all change that happens to address several issues with Prot Paladins being so "overpowered." It breaks up our rotation if you choose to remain at low hit/exp. It makes procs more interesting even if less frequent. And forces you to watch your resources more actively. How many of you can use idly run through your rotation without much effort? I do it mindlessly though I prefer SoR over WoG and only WoG when completely necessary. (Sorry. I've never been a fan of WoG and all of its implications.) Plus with inconsistent HPo generation obviously has an effect on our self healing. Our threat becomes more spikey in the beginning, but Vengeance soon takes over. So effectively this change addresses our survivability and threat in varying degrees. But it's more of a band aid fix to what I feel is a larger issue.

Vengeance. This was meant to bring all tanks to a balance with threat. And it does. The problem is that it makes threat a non-issue. And Blizzard claims they want it to matter. The only way I think Vengeance could really work is that it either takes a nerf, which will also nerf our self healing. Or they bring back Threat Decay. And with bringing back Threat Decay, there would have to be a nerf to the scaling on WoG. I assume and could be wrong, but a straight up nerf to Vengeance or adding back Threat Decay will cause Blizz to have to look at all of the tanks while this "bug fix" really only puts pallies back in line so to speak. It still seems to me as a band aid fix to a problem they've created with unbalanced mechanics.

But I could be wrong in my assumptions, this is just how I am seeing it now. I'm open to critique on the subject as I am in a different position than a hardcore tank.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:07 pm

Forgive me if there is "QQ" In the post I put on the forums:
(And sorry for heavy use of bold/italic, its hard to get noticed on those forums, and bolding hardly does anything compared to what it does here on MTankadin)

The fact that Theck, one of the big theory crafters of paladins, is chiming in here to post his concerns.... Really should say something.

And I fully support his statements about (Prot) Paladins and HoPower generation.

While ret can get hit/exp soft cap (and it is their design philosophy to do so) and virtually make the problem non-existent, currently all raiding prot paladins focus on low hit, low-exp gear.. In fact, the game design focuses on that...

Look up:
359 gear with Expertise & Mastery:
Helm (Tank)
(& 2 DPS Items)
Helm is de-valued on expertise to bump mastery -- I think most tanks are actually okay with that, prot paladins are.

359 Expertise & Dodge:
Vendor Bracers
VP Boots
(Both over-itemized for Dodge at the cost of expertise & Strength)

359 Expertise & Parry:
Crafted Chest
Legs from Atramedes, lowered strength & Expertise values to bump Parry

359 Mastery and Hit:
DPS Set pieces only


There's just a lot of random pieces (NO TIER PIECES for ANY tank) that vaguely go into expertise for tanks..

The random pieces that DO have expertise, show it at a very low value -- few pieces WITH expertise have the full / standard value of it, unless it's a DPS piece.. the "tanking" pieces that do have the full value are: Crafted Chest Wait, did I just set up a list for 1 item? :-/

No other 'tank' pieces are out there that do not sacrifice some other stat...



Lots look at raiding going forward: 372 gear:
Helm from Maloriak
Legs from Atramedes
Shoulder from Nefarian

All 3 items are devalued on expertise. No other tanking plate exist without crafted and vendor starter pieces

Every sign I get points to the fact tanks are not designed to focus on expertise..





But Pseudo, that was all plate... You can get rings, trinkets, cloaks, shields, weapons!!!

Yes, That was all the plate, lets look at not-plate:
1) No necks in the game with Expertise + Dodge, +Parry, or +Mastery
2) No tank trinket in the game with expertise
3) One standard tank ring in the game with expertise
4) No Heroic tank cloak in the game with expertise (Vendor options for starter sets)
5) No shields in the game with expertise




Oh, and that *one* ring (no, not the LOTR Ring, the bile-o-tron ring), also has a heroic version.... buuuuttt... as I pointed out there's nothing else.


So there's a grand total of 4 expertise options for a heroic tank raider that wants expertise... Why? My guess would be that tanks were supposed to focus on Dodge, Parry, Mastery, Armor, Stamina....

Vengeance was supposed to carry threat, with class abilities supporting it.


Now we have tanks running around in 0% hit, and 0 Expertise -- I mean, all the tanking pieces basically support it when you get into raiding -- as I pointed out, there's only 4 tank drops WITH expertise to begin with.

So these prot paladins with this change, now have a 30% chance to NOT get holy power every 3 seconds.... while vengeance eventually wins out, this gives a high likelihood of threat being pushed back 3 or 6 seconds, with 12 or 15 seconds possible without a huge stretch

Why not use fillers to help when CS misses? Well... the class was designed around (CS) (filler) (CS) (filler) (CS) (Combo breaker!!) (cs) (repeat filler)... We simply have no 'filler to throw in there...

Grand crusader requires CS Land to refresh, and is still only partially usable (based on when it happens in rotation)
Consecrate can fill in for 1 filler every minute
Holy wrath & Avenging shield can fill in for 1 filler every 2 cycles (frequently rotated every other cycle)

So, after we get past the Consecrate filler, we have nothing left to cast... that 'dead' spot was supposed to be the guaranteed holy power ability that refreshed our Holy Shield and generated threat (Directly or indirectly) -- and in most cases, is the *primary* ability that pushes us ahead early on in a fight



I mean... Just look at everything above, and look at Theck's post about other classes penalty..

I can't see how it was a design intent that Prot Paladins were supposed to focus on Expertise, and I can't see how it was a CLASS design for us to not get Holy power -- we're literally having dead zones, which was something I believe was DESIGNED to be REMOVED.


Anyway, that's my piece, I have not seen Ghostcrawler in days so this research will probably disappear before it is noticed :-/


I wanted to repost it here as I did research on the gear available, and thought it was worth pointing out:
There's only 4 tank pieces in the game for heroic raiding with Expertise + Tank stat... And all of them are devalued expertise



I agree with most the level headed people here that the change is not *zomg class killer*.. it's an annoyance, it's unjustified, it hurts, but it's not the apocalypse.

Some reasonable idea's I've seen include CS CD being reset on use -- Okay, but I don't exactly like the fact we can't "Que" CS in the spell que.. but it would be close enough to in-line with other classes
Of course, going back to the old system would be great as well.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:24 pm

Kihra wrote:I'd be interested in knowing which of these gives the most self-healing with the assumption that all 10 points of Glyph of SoT would count towards the soft Exp cap (reduce both Dodge and Parry chance).

(1) Seal of Truth coupled with Glyph of Seal of Truth and WoG spam.
(2) Seal of Insight coupled with Glyph of Seal of Insight and WoG spam.

(1) will give you the most HPS from WoG, but at the cost of Seal of Insight. (2) will cause you to have fewer WoG, but you heal from SoI. You also get the bonus from the Glyph.

Also curious about:

(3) Seal of Insight coupled with WoG spam, but no Glyph of SoI. Obviously this is the same as (2) but without the healing bonus, but it's a common scenario for fights where you care about threat at various points during the fight (leading you to not re-glyph).


You should be able to calculate all of these from the priority simulation data sets.

You have:
data1: SoT/SotR/HotR/CS/AS/Cons glyphs + "SotR" talent spec w/o EG + 939 and W39 rotations at 2% hit, 10 exp
data2: SoI/WoG/HotR/CS/AS/Cons glyphs + "WoG" talent spec w/EG but no SotP + 939 and W39 rotations at 2% hit, 10 exp
data3: the first setup again at 8% hit and 26 exp

(1) and (2) are already provided in the data sets, though the lack of EG procs in the first data set may be something you want to correct for. (approximately 23% extra healing from WoG due to EG).
(3) is just data set 1's results plus the SoI healing from data set 2 because GoSoI does not affect SoI healing.

Going the other way (i.e. using the healing from data2 and removing the SoI glyph) is only slightly trickier. Since, the SoI glyph is merely a 5% additive bonus to WoG, so you can figure it out by dividing SoI+GoSoI WoG HPS by (1+GoWoG)/(1+GoWoG+0.05), where GoWoG=0.1 if glyph of WoG is present (as in the sim), and 0 otherwise.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby baneoftruth » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:26 pm

Some reasonable idea's I've seen include CS CD being reset on use -- Okay, but I don't exactly like the fact we can't "Que" CS in the spell que.. but it would be close enough to in-line with other classes
Of course, going back to the old system would be great as well.

How about this...
"While Righteous Fury is active your Crusader Strike & Hammer of the Righteous misses/dodges/parries will generate 1 HP."
OR
Sacred Duty
"Your Judgements have a 25/50% chance of making your next Shield of the Righteous a critical strike. Lasts 15 sec. In addition to this effect, your Crusader Strike & Hammer of the Righteous misses/dodges/parries have a 50/100% chance to generate 1 HP."

It's a band-aid fix that puts us right back to where we were pre "bug" fix, and still allows Blizzard to "challenge" ret paladins...
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:28 pm

I doubt this was a Ret Paladin aimed change, baneoftruth, since they're expected to hit cap, soft expertise cap, and mostly stand behind.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a little free Expertise added in the Prot tree, but it's unlikely with the Glyph of SoT still in game.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:29 pm

Sur-Pseudo wrote:stuff


Note that I don't agree with you completely. I don't think that it's good design for tanks to be completely ignoring threat stats (we cared some in Wrath, for example). I don't even think that's the intended design, or the purpose of Vengeance. But that's exactly what's happened as a side effect of the current incarnation of Vengeance.

In other words, I think it would be fine for us to care about threat stats. I just don't think that throwing a wrench into our resource generation model is the way to do it, especially since it doesn't actually accomplish that goal.

The problem with threat is Vengeance. Fix Vengeance so that it's not so ridiculously overpowered, and tanks will naturally drift back to incorporating threat stats in their gearing decisions. It's that simple. If this level of Vengeance is needed to keep balance going in T13 content, then slowly ramp it up from 2% to 10% stamina with each content patch if necessary.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:31 pm

Theck,
My math stinks (like, really bad), but I'm curious about Soft cap expertise effect on Holy power or Healing-- e.g. does a 14% reduction in dodge/parry come out ahead or behind a 2% avoidance loss

As expertise to soft cap is the *most* efficient use of stat points to effect holy power, I was curious if only going to that step would have a meaningful effect on the ability to use WOG throughout a fight (so with proper seals)... or if it had an meaningful effect on DPS (Mainly a concern in my side 10 man) compared to the 2% avoidance which my healers could probably handle -- especially if it let me use WoG or DPS when either is an issue
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Arianne » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:33 pm

theckhd wrote:The problem with threat is Vengeance. Fix Vengeance so that it's not so ridiculously overpowered, and tanks will naturally drift back to incorporating threat stats in their gearing decisions. It's that simple. If this level of Vengeance is needed to keep balance going in T13 content, then slowly ramp it up from 2% to 10% stamina with each content patch if necessary.


This 100x. /sigh

I'm more frustrated by the fact that the AoE Nova doesn't happen when you miss with HotR than by losing the guaranteed HoPo generation. I feel like I was doing ok pre-patch for gearing, finally getting to a bit of a point where I was about enough geared for the heroic modes that we're doing. Now, all of a sudden, I have a choice of playing badly by not having enough AoE threat or playing badly by not having enough mitigation for the encounter. Playing badly isn't fun.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby baneoftruth » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:35 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:I doubt this was a Ret Paladin aimed change, baneoftruth, since they're expected to hit cap, soft expertise cap, and mostly stand behind.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a little free Expertise added in the Prot tree, but it's unlikely with the Glyph of SoT still in game.

The tone that I got from this post was that the change was geared toward ret, and any consequences that it held for prot was just collateral damage. But that's my interpretation...

:-/
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Malthrax » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:37 pm

baneoftruth wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:I doubt this was a Ret Paladin aimed change, baneoftruth, since they're expected to hit cap, soft expertise cap, and mostly stand behind.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a little free Expertise added in the Prot tree, but it's unlikely with the Glyph of SoT still in game.

The tone that I got from this post was that the change was geared toward ret, and any consequences that it held for prot was just collateral damage. But that's my interpretation...

:-/

My interpretation of the "tone" was that of Zarhym simply being an overly dismissive jackhole.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:39 pm

Actually Theck, I agree with you.

But this change puts paladins a bit further back when I previously felt we were "Close enough" (At least to warriors) -- if not a bit behind in threat/dps

I like balance, I like freedom to choose if I want survivability or threat. Until now I've been Survive > ALL.. now I have to consider if 29% miss/dodge/parry is too detrimental, and if I do, I now have to drop my survivability unlike say... a warrior tank.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Meloree » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:43 pm

Arianne wrote:
theckhd wrote:The problem with threat is Vengeance. Fix Vengeance so that it's not so ridiculously overpowered, and tanks will naturally drift back to incorporating threat stats in their gearing decisions. It's that simple. If this level of Vengeance is needed to keep balance going in T13 content, then slowly ramp it up from 2% to 10% stamina with each content patch if necessary.


This 100x. /sigh

I'm more frustrated by the fact that the AoE Nova doesn't happen when you miss with HotR than by losing the guaranteed HoPo generation. I feel like I was doing ok pre-patch for gearing, finally getting to a bit of a point where I was about enough geared for the heroic modes that we're doing. Now, all of a sudden, I have a choice of playing badly by not having enough AoE threat or playing badly by not having enough mitigation for the encounter. Playing badly isn't fun.


Am I the only person that thinks prot AoE threat/damage is too high? Either way, I was under the impression that HotR hadn't changed, aside from getting a combat-log entry for miss/parry/dodge. It's always been able to not fire, I think.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Redleg » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:03 pm

Meloree wrote:Am I the only person that thinks prot AoE threat/damage is too high? Either way, I was under the impression that HotR hadn't changed, aside from getting a combat-log entry for miss/parry/dodge. It's always been able to not fire, I think.


Yeah, Theck corrected me on that. As you said the aoe was never functioning on a miss/parry/dodge. The difference is now it's more visually/audibly noticeable since you no longer see the graphic and hear the sound from it with the physical part misses. I suspect that is likely due to the change in the combat log, so the client actually knows that it missed, and therefore doesn't do the visual/audible effects.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:12 pm

Sur-Pseudo wrote:Theck,
My math stinks (like, really bad), but I'm curious about Soft cap expertise effect on Holy power or Healing-- e.g. does a 14% reduction in dodge/parry come out ahead or behind a 2% avoidance loss

As expertise to soft cap is the *most* efficient use of stat points to effect holy power, I was curious if only going to that step would have a meaningful effect on the ability to use WOG throughout a fight (so with proper seals)... or if it had an meaningful effect on DPS (Mainly a concern in my side 10 man) compared to the 2% avoidance which my healers could probably handle -- especially if it let me use WoG or DPS when either is an issue


I worked this out over at EJ and reposted it upthread somewhere. Point for point, 1 point of expertise rating provides something like 0.8 HPS, while 1 point of avoidance rating reduces damage taken by 1.2 DPS and 1 point of mastery rating is about 1.5 DPS. 1 point of hit rating is around half of expertise, so ~0.4 HPS.
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