Remove Advertisements

CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Malarkey » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:19 am

Doxa wrote:Way too much QQ in this thread, imho.

Inferences (and there are several of them here) that we will no longer be effective tanks are FAR overstated.

Overall, my threat went up last night as a result of the other changes.

Now, we haven't started heroic raiding yet but I doubt honestly that this is as bad as the QQ would make it sound.


I'm sorry but you're flat out wrong. We lost threat and survivability through losing WoG's/ShoR's. Of course we can still tank all current content - but that doesn't mean that the mechanic is now completely broken. I have so much dead time in my rotation now it is ridiculous. I normally ran with 2% hit and approx 6 expertise. I am now forced to either lose approximately 10-15% of my current avoidance so that I can actually WoG and ShoR reliably or I'm forced to hope that early on in a fight all of my CS' land. No other tank has this issue, no other class is punished this much for missed attacks. Our entire rotation and priorities are pushed back significantly when we miss.

Btw - Have fun doing PVP now. It is laughable how much PVP sucks for Paladins now. You thought you were HoPo starved before? Good luck PVP'ing when your target has 20-30% avoidance. This completely fucks PVP.
Last edited by Malarkey on Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Malarkey
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:03 pm

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Saltycracker » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:20 am

theckhd wrote:[Were you seeing any misses on WoL?


It did record misses.

I'm not sure why, but HoTR is split into two different attacks. I'm sure you know what's going on better than I do, though. It looks strange to me but the Holy AoE looks like it is the one getting dodged/parried.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/pdym ... tails/125/
Last edited by Saltycracker on Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Big Crits - The Reality Webshow about Raiding in the World of Warcraft: Real People Conquering a Virtual World.
http://www.bigcrits.com
Saltycracker
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:46 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Doxa » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:20 am

Meloree wrote:It isn't that bad. It's an annoying change, and a frustrating change, and a stupid change. In some ways, it's kind of a fun change, though. The rotation not being completely static is actually kind of interesting - although the idea of scaling away from interesting rotation to boring rotation in later tiers is inelegant. There's still no reason to get any hit or expertise - you end up with some empty GCDs when you have a bad RNG streak with CS, but it doesn't stop us from having a monstrous threat lead, or running SoI for the majority of a fight. I think the vast majority of the upset is from the "Stealth nerf" presentation of the change.


I agree completely with the part I underlined.

For me, it comes down to the question of "how did this change impact me?". And honestly, it's pretty hard to determine it had any noticeable impact at all. We still cleared 7 bosses in 2.5 hours and I was still able to keep a sizable threat lead over our DPS (who actually got a bit of a nice boost it seems).

Now, I get it is a "stealth nerf" and it isn't consistent with other class mechanics but it isn't that bad. Hell, I'd willingly take this in exchange for an interrupt any day. :-)
Tanking Trash on Doxa with Consecration(Rank3) Since 2007, on Doxah with Thunderclap since 2009 and on Doxeh with Death and Decay since 2010

Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
Doxa
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:03 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby vexryn » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:24 am

I went into raid last night WITHOUT changing my prior gear itemization, which means I was at 0 expertise (but +10 for the glyph) and only 48 hit (from the reforging Atramedes neck). I wanted to see how it would be.

In my experience, and consistent with a lot of Theck's comments, it's wasn't bad, it was just annoying. I already use HP and Holy Shield indicators, I just had to watch them a little more. There were very few instances I felt the need to pop a 2HP WoG to refresh HS, although it did happen a handful of times. Thanks to Vengeance, threat is still a non-issue for the most part. Before I usually had control thanks to Vengeance by the time Tricks wore off... last night, I had to keep an eye on things another 10-20 seconds just to be safe.

Without a doubt, the annoying part is just the inconsistency of the rotation. I don't "miss" the hit/expertise for the threat stats, as vengeance is still getting it done in raids. I just have a very unstable rotation with more things to monitor to make decisions. Which I suppose isn't awful, per se - having decisions to make is part of why I enjoy my tankadin a lot more in Cata than I did in Wrath - but the gaps and the erraticness of the rotation is annoying.

We killed heroic Halfus, working a little on heroic Magmaw, killed regular Magmaw and Omnotron, and then worked a bit on heroic Chimaeron. I think Chimaeron was probably the fight I noticed it the most, as I was not able to consistently build to 3 HP and belt out some heals during Feuds. I'm expecting my loss of hps from steady WoG healing will be more noticeable on fights like Nefarian, especially if we have to do it again sometime in 10-man where I used to sustain almost 3k hps throughout the fight helping out healers.

So overall, having gone through one full night of raiding, including some content that is progression for us, I do concur with Theck that Blizzard missed the mark on this. Because frankly, I still don't intend to gear for hit and expertise at all. Threat still isn't an issue after 45 seconds into the fight. In my experience, given that I'm persisting with my low-hit low-expertise gear, this simply is a nerf to my self-healing due to less consistent HP generation for WoGs, makes pulls slightly more chaotic because I don't always quite own the threat meters by the time Tricks/MDs wear off now, and makes the whole rotation for the duration of the fight more annoying to manage with little actual benefit for managing it well.


As a sidenote for those working on progression or doing it, heroic Halfus got nerfed materially in the patch, at least on 25-man. Halfus himself and all the drakes had their melee damage reduced by 15%. On the other hand, they also nerfed what I assume they viewed as "abuse" mechanics with the disc smite healers and warlocks doing Bane of Havoc with crazy numbers. Nonetheless, tank survival - including and especially during Furious Roars with drakes - is MUCH easier to manage now.
vexryn
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:12 pm

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby mclem » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:28 am

Doxa wrote:Now, I get it is a "stealth nerf" and it isn't consistent with other class mechanics but it isn't that bad. Hell, I'd willingly take this in exchange for an interrupt any day. :-)

I'm reminded of the following from GC:
Crabman wrote:We don't balance anything around the assumption of frequent, off the GCD tank interrupts. Prot paladins can occasionally interrupt when they want to reposition a caster or when everyone else is snoozing or whatever. It's a quality of life issue at best, but not a balance one.

Well, they fixed the quality of life issue... and gave us a new quality of life issue in its place.
mclem
 
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:12 pm

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Marilee » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:28 am

I think the theory that this was done by an underling who saw it and said, "wait, that can't be right!" is very likely. The weird late addition to the patch notes and the fact that it says "block" in it, when this is clearly wrong, lends weight to the theory.

Save us, Ghostcrawler! :D
User avatar
Marilee
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:35 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Doxa » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:29 am

Malarkey wrote:
Doxa wrote:Way too much QQ in this thread, imho.

Inferences (and there are several of them here) that we will no longer be effective tanks are FAR overstated.

Overall, my threat went up last night as a result of the other changes.

Now, we haven't started heroic raiding yet but I doubt honestly that this is as bad as the QQ would make it sound.


I'm sorry but you're flat out wrong. We lost threat and survivability through losing WoG's/ShoR's. Of course we can still tank all current content - but that doesn't mean that the mechanic is now completely broken. I have so much dead time in my rotation now it is ridiculous. I normally ran with 2% hit and approx 6 expertise. I am now forced to either lose approximately 10-15% of my current avoidance so that I can actually WoG and ShoR reliably or I'm forced to hope that early on in a fight all of my CS' land. No other tank has this issue, no other class is punished this much for missed attacks. Our entire rotation and priorities are pushed back significantly when we miss.

Btw - Have fun doing PVP now. It is laughable how much PVP sucks for Paladins now. You thought you were HoPo starved before? Good luck PVP'ing when your target has 20-30% avoidance. This completely fucks PVP.


Umm.. the Glyph of Seal of Truth is 10 expertise right there. Ya know.. you don't have to be completely allergic to threat related gear/glyphs/stats. Seriously, tanks have long recognized that threat stats are part of tanking. So, surprise! Threat stats are... umm.. part of the job?
Tanking Trash on Doxa with Consecration(Rank3) Since 2007, on Doxah with Thunderclap since 2009 and on Doxeh with Death and Decay since 2010

Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
Doxa
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:03 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Meloree » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:32 am

Doxa wrote:Umm.. the Glyph of Seal of Truth is 10 expertise right there. Ya know.. you don't have to be completely allergic to threat related gear/glyphs/stats. Seriously, tanks have long recognized that threat stats are part of tanking. So, surprise! Threat stats are... umm.. part of the job?


To be fair - you only tend to tank with SoT for about 30 seconds of any given fight.

And threat stats are still completely unnecessary, thanks to Vengeance. Low hit/exp just make the rotation frustrating/unstable/dynamic/fun (whichever combination of words you prefer there).
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:39 am

Doxa wrote:
Meloree wrote:It isn't that bad. It's an annoying change, and a frustrating change, and a stupid change. In some ways, it's kind of a fun change, though. The rotation not being completely static is actually kind of interesting - although the idea of scaling away from interesting rotation to boring rotation in later tiers is inelegant. There's still no reason to get any hit or expertise - you end up with some empty GCDs when you have a bad RNG streak with CS, but it doesn't stop us from having a monstrous threat lead, or running SoI for the majority of a fight. I think the vast majority of the upset is from the "Stealth nerf" presentation of the change.


I agree completely with the part I underlined.


See, I disagree, because I like a clean rotation where I can predict the next couple GCDs (more or less, Grand Crusader procs are fine too). I can react differently if I know there's 3 seconds until my next SotR instead of 6, and so forth. But for the most part, that's a personal preference; I enjoy how Ret plays (both pre- and post-patch), and that's the complete opposite because it's an orgy proc-watching. I'm just not very fond of that style for tanking.

But in truth, the impact is fairly minimal. We got several DPS buffs that offset the holy power generation nerf. Self-healing will be slightly lower and less predictable (though SoI healing is still very potent).

Meloree wrote:To be fair - you only tend to tank with SoT for about 30 seconds of any given fight.

And threat stats are still completely unnecessary, thanks to Vengeance. Low hit/exp just make the rotation frustrating/unstable/dynamic/fun (whichever combination of words you prefer there).


On many fights, I haven't been using SoT at all, though I haven't raided since the patch.

At best, this may raise the question of whether it's a more efficient HPS->TPS trade to use SoT/GoSoT and WoG as a holy power dump, or SoI/GoSoI and SotR as a holy power dump. As well as raise the same question about GoSotR and GoWoG under those same circumstances. I suspect that all of these can be answered from the data sets I posted in the MATLAB thread, given a few minutes of scrutiny.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7756
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:52 am

Saltycracker wrote:
theckhd wrote:[Were you seeing any misses on WoL?


It did record misses.

I'm not sure why, but HoTR is split into two different attacks. I'm sure you know what's going on better than I do, though. It looks strange to me but the Holy AoE looks like it is the one getting dodged/parried.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/pdym ... tails/125/


HotR is effectively two different attacks. Zeroing in on your abilities:
Code: Select all
      Ability             Tot. Dmg    Pct    Abs  Dodge  Evade  Miss  Parry    Miss%
Hammer of the Righteous   11295898   21.7 %   7     0      0     70      0      3.8 %
Hammer of the Righteous    1486984    2.9 %   3    35      1     99     70     15.8 %


The first is obviously the HammerNova (holy) component, the second is the physical component. HotR(phys) can miss/dodge/parry, and seems to be properly generating combat log entries now, so hooray for small miracles.

HotR(holy) is basically a 100% proc off of HotR(phys). If I had to bet, I'd say they coded it exactly like a proc, because it uses all of the same mechanics. It's treated as a spell, so it can't be dodged or parried, but uses spell miss (9% for us before hit rating). HotR(holy) does not occur if HotR(phys) misses, but can miss independently of HotR(phys), meaning that the game makes a second attack roll for each target hit by HotR(holy).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7756
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Meloree » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:06 am

theckhd wrote:See, I disagree, because I like a clean rotation where I can predict the next couple GCDs (more or less, Grand Crusader procs are fine too). I can react differently if I know there's 3 seconds until my next SotR instead of 6, and so forth. But for the most part, that's a personal preference; I enjoy how Ret plays (both pre- and post-patch), and that's the complete opposite because it's an orgy proc-watching. I'm just not very fond of that style for tanking.

But in truth, the impact is fairly minimal. We got several DPS buffs that offset the holy power generation nerf. Self-healing will be slightly lower and less predictable (though SoI healing is still very potent).


I don't know, I personally find 939 even more boring and mechanical than 969 was. Even with the GC procs, it's not dynamic enough to be anything but routine - there's no way to separate "good at 939" from "bad at 939". So, to me, any kind of mixing it up has some fun value.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Saltycracker » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:17 am

theckhd wrote:HotR(holy) is basically a 100% proc off of HotR(phys). If I had to bet, I'd say they coded it exactly like a proc, because it uses all of the same mechanics. It's treated as a spell, so it can't be dodged or parried, but uses spell miss (9% for us before hit rating). HotR(holy) does not occur if HotR(phys) misses, but can miss independently of HotR(phys), meaning that the game makes a second attack roll for each target hit by HotR(holy).


Roger that, and thanks for pointing that out; hurp a durp on my part for forgetting that the physical component was only 30% weapon damage and focusing on the holy portion. I suppose that HoTR might be a TPS increase for 10man guilds that don't have access to a sunder armor, since the Holy component does much more damage than the physical component, and Crusader Strike is all physical damage.
Image

Big Crits - The Reality Webshow about Raiding in the World of Warcraft: Real People Conquering a Virtual World.
http://www.bigcrits.com
Saltycracker
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:46 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Malarkey » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:19 am

Meloree wrote:
Doxa wrote:Umm.. the Glyph of Seal of Truth is 10 expertise right there. Ya know.. you don't have to be completely allergic to threat related gear/glyphs/stats. Seriously, tanks have long recognized that threat stats are part of tanking. So, surprise! Threat stats are... umm.. part of the job?


To be fair - you only tend to tank with SoT for about 30 seconds of any given fight.

And threat stats are still completely unnecessary, thanks to Vengeance. Low hit/exp just make the rotation frustrating/unstable/dynamic/fun (whichever combination of words you prefer there).

Exactly what Meloree said. I glyph SoI because at most I spend the first 30-60sec of a fight using SoT, if that. I've been tanking on my pally since BC, I certainly understand the class and that threat stats are part of the job. I used to have hit capped sets for boss fights where you couldn't miss a taunt (Saurfang) and exp hard capped for fights where I could get parry gibbed (Sindragosa). When threat stats begin to affect survivability I think we can agree that a mechanic is rather broken. They did remove parry haste from bosses for a reason.
Malarkey
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:03 pm

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Petrus » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:23 am

Here's what I can piece together of the history of the CS missing/not missing ordeal:

(Note: some links in this post go to our old Cataclysm forum, which is currently hidden)

Relevant Ghostcrawler quotes:

October 4, 2010:

Ghostcrawler wrote:While we still have grave concerns about players being able to fill every GCD, we also don't want to change paladin tanking so much that it is unrecognizable for long-term paladins. Therefore, we are going to try Crusader Strike on a 3 second cooldown for Protection only. Hammer of the Righteous will have the same cooldown. This will allow Protection to fill in almost every gap in the rotation and not be waiting so long on every cooldown, which should help the rotation feel more active.

...I have to add the standard no promises clause to all of the above, because I have learned that I need to do that.


September 7, 2010:

Ghostcrawler wrote:Mana needs to matter more. Ret (and Prot) generally need to be able to hit all of "their" buttons without being resource constrained, but then should only have enough mana to situationally use things like Holy Light, Exorcism or (untalented) Consecrate.


July 26, 2010:

Ghostcrawler wrote:The current Cataclysm rotation is far from static and was in fact so frenetic that we had to scale back on some of the random procs and Holy Power generation or paladins were never going to have the bandwidth to do things like position the boss.


Ghostcrawler wrote:It's entirely possible there isn't enough Holy Power to go around for Prot yet. We want you to be able to consider things like Inquisition and Word of Glory.




After wading through 100+ pages of our Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm thread as well as our Cataclysm forum, here's what I got (bolding is mine, not OP's):

Leuthas on August 31:
Leuthas wrote:I've gotten myself confused, Holy Power is derived from each yellow attack cast? Now keep in mind that I've only started looking at all this information today - I've been away from paying much attention to the game for months. It seems to me, from what information I've managed to find, CS is the only source (or HotR for AE) for Holy Power - that really sucks.


So by August 31, we've got a CS that autogenerates the HP when cast, no matter of whether or not it hits.

Noradin on August 4:
Noradin wrote:What happens when we miss with ShoR? Do we still get the HS buff?
If not we have get through 4 chances to miss or be avoided before we can applie our 15% block chance.
It would be extremly frustrating to hit CS 5 times to finally get 3HP and then miss on ShoR and loose (sic) it all.
In fact postponing HS because you didn't get 3 HP in time will be frustrating in itself. If it happens too often I'm not sure I will have fun playing a paladin tank.


More of the same:
Candiru, July 28 (bottom post)
Marblehead, August 2 (first sentence after his big long rotation post)

On August 4, we clearly don't have a CS that autogenerates HP no matter what, but on August 31 we do. Thus, we can place the change sometime between the 4th and 31st, and I'll do more digging to see if I can find word of the change in between there since I didn't find a Ghostcrawler Beta forum post about it in there.

Interestingly, that means that this whole CS autogenerating HP thing is a relic of the 4.5-second cooldown CS era during beta, not something they did after it was down to 3 seconds
Last edited by Petrus on Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Petrus
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 940
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:45 am
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:25 am

Meloree wrote:I don't know, I personally find 939 even more boring and mechanical than 969 was. Even with the GC procs, it's not dynamic enough to be anything but routine - there's no way to separate "good at 939" from "bad at 939". So, to me, any kind of mixing it up has some fun value.

That's an inherent issue with 939, regardless of holy power generation. This change may break up the monotony some, in that we're not on a fixed 9-second cycle. But it's still at it's root CS-X-repeat, filling X with whatever is available. The only thing separating "good" from "bad" in either system is how well someone adheres to the SotR>J>AS>Cons>HW queue for the X slots, which is fairly trivial.

I sort of wish they had gone back to the old 4.5-second CS model and given us HotR and/or Holy Shield as a separate filler. There's a lot of potential in that model to make Grand Crusader and Sacred Duty important. It just has to be handled properly, and Holy Power mechanics would have to be adjusted pretty significantly.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7756
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: melisandyr and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: melisandyr and 1 guest
?php } else { ?