Remove Advertisements

CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Beefchief » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:44 am

The worst thing about the nerf is how it makes gameplay feel - it was like a piano with one of the keys sticking one fifth of the time. I can't get into my rotation tempo. I'd at least be happy if HotR *always* got me holy power, so then I get to make a choice "do I want guaranteed holy power on this swing or some extra damage"
User avatar
Beefchief
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:57 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:53 am

Reposting from here. Feel free to keep that thread bumped, or repost this anywhere you like. The only way that this will be addressed honestly (intended change or not) is if Ghostcrawler himself gives it to us straight.

I still believe that this change was made by an underling, without his consultation. For as much as I don't always agree with GC, he's very intelligent, and would recognize the more subtle resource mechanic issue that is the heart of this problem. And if he was in on it, I think he's shown us enough respect during the beta process that he'd make sure we were aware it was coming via patch notes.

Maybe he was aware of it, maybe not; either way I'd like to hear it from the horse's (crab's?) mouth.

Theck wrote:As of right now, no end game tank is rewarded for stacking threat stats. This change is a slight nerf to paladin threat and self-healing, which is not the primary problem. The primary problem is that it muddles an already weak resource mechanic, and screws up any chance of having a solid rotation.

A DK that misses with Death Strike does not lose the rune; they can recast immediately to get their shield. The real cost of a miss is a GCD.

A warrior that misses with Shield Slam is not locked out of Devastate for the duration of Shield Slam's cooldown. Similarly, a Devastate miss does not lock them out of Shield Slam or increase Shield Slam's current cooldown. And from what I'm told, they still generate rage on missed attacks. The real cost of miss is a GCD.

A rogue that misses with Sinister Strike is not prevented from casting SS again on the next GCD, nor do they stop generating energy during that time. The real cost of a miss is a GCD.

A paladin that misses with Crusader Strike now pushes back their next SotR (or WoG) by 3 seconds. It is entirely possible for an appropriately-geared raiding paladin (i.e. low hit, low expertise) to miss several CS in a row, delaying their hard-hitting attack by 6, 9, 12+ seconds.

If you want to make an analogy to another class, this is equivalent to a Devastate miss increasing Shield Slam's cooldown, a Death Strike miss costing a rune, or a Sinister Strike miss putting all Combo-point generators on cooldown for 3 seconds. It is not simply "oops I missed," it's a significant wrench thrown into the resource generation mechanic.

And for those who aren't as familiar with WoW patch history, the notion that this was a "bugfix" is laughable. When Holy Power was first introduced, CS did not generate HP on a miss/dodge/parry. The change to guaranteed generation per cast was an intentional balancing change made during beta to alleviate the RNG problems that paladin tanks complained about (and of which we are all about to get an encore performance). I distinctly remember a post made by Ghostcrawler on the beta forums in which he explicitly stated that this was a change they were making because they felt that tank resource generation (and resultant threat) should be more reliable, and less dependent on RNG.

This change wasn't made because Paladin threat was too high. It wasn't made because they want tanks to care about hit/exp, because the other three classes still won't. So why was it made? My guess is that someone on the development team noticed this behavior, didn't understand it, and naively assumed it was a bug and fixed it. It will take intercession from The Crab himself to set things right.

If they want hit and expertise to matter to tanks, the solution is not to mess with our resource mechanics. The problem, across the board, is Vengeance. The only reason all tanks ignore hit/exp right now is because Vengeance ensures that they can hold threat without those stats. This is true for all four tanks. If threat is supposed to matter, then Vengenace is the bug, not holy power generation. I like the concept of Vengeance, but not the magnitude. If it granted 5% of stamina or less, it might be balanced, and we'd have to start considering threat stats as part of our gearing strategy.

As of right now, with Vengeance unchanged, even this Holy Power nerf doesn't do much to make us care about hit/exp. It just gives our rotation more dead time and makes it more annoying. That's not a change that helps balance, it just nerfs fun.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby vinylger » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:17 am

theckhd wrote:HammerNova has never given holy power. Both the holy power generation and the HammerNova portion are tied to the physical portion.

If it helps, think of the physical portion of the spell, and the Nova portion as a proc that can occur if the spell succeeds.


Thank you for pointing this out. And in the name of all tanking "casualdins" out there PLEASE do not throw your "pally" away! :(
vinylger
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:09 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Beefchief » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:21 am

I can completely see how a player would shelf a Prot Pally to make way for an alt until this course is reversed - you have to play a class that's fun to play, and this is a significant fun nerf.
User avatar
Beefchief
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:57 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Thorsschmatt » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:23 am

Since i've been running a purely healing focused build so far, i tried crunching some numbers to see how this would effect my self-healing.

My aim was to know how much more damage i would take if i went for the different caps, compared to the heal i would gain through more holy power.

I choose a 10N Chogall fight for the numbers. The other tank starting the fight, i don't have to care about aggro at all, and can go full heal, ending up at around 45% of my healing done by myself (yea, our selfheal is/was OP).

First, i calculated an estimate of how much less i would heal in the new situation without changing anything, just for the sake of knowing how much this impacts us. To get there, i took the average chance per CS to have 3 HP and multiplied it with the respective time (i.e. 0,75^3 * 9sec for 3 HP after 3CS uses), adding it up, giving me the average duration of a 3HP cycle with the new mechanic. Since i'm only interested in estimates, i only included up to 4 misses.

With a 75% hit rate (being commonly atm) this ends up giving me an average duration of ~11,26sec, meaning an increase of roughly 25% compared to the 9sec cycle pre 4.0.6. This equals around 20% less healing done with WoG, or aggro done with SotR. This as a rough estimate on how the change affects you, if you don't change anything. WoG accounting for ca 70% of my selfheal, this equates 14% less healing done total.

Now let's compare this situation to a situation where i get myself the needed expertise for softcap.

I will calculate with the 780 expertise rating needed, since i glyph for SealofInsight, and want to ignore the 5% healing lost for the moment. Losing the same ammount of rating of dodge and parry would cost me roughly 3,55% avoidance. Again, with my current gear, this would mean roughly 6,25% more dmg taken.

Using same method as above: No exp/hit: Cycle ~11,56 s
Exp Softcap: Cycle ~10,36 s
Gain of 11,5% WoGs, 13% SoL procs. At ratio of 70% selfheal done by WoG and 25% done by SoL (again, my Chogall encounter, numbers may differ), this equals 11,3% selfheal gained.

Now to compare this to the avoidance loss. I'm sure there's a more elegant way to solve this, but i already invested more time than i wanted, an easy way:

Taking 6,25% more dmg would mean that the initial 45% healing done at that specific Chogall fight, would only account for 42,35% of the healing done (Assuming same absolute healing done, but increased absolute dmg done). Now let's add the additional heal, and we end up at 47,13% healing done.
So that leaves 52,87% of the healing to be done by the healers. Of course, the absolute dmg increased, so we need to calc these back to the original data where i took less dmg, ending up at 56,17% healing done.

So, although we increase our relative self heal by a change to more expertise, in reality we increase the load on the healers. Add the fact that less avoidance means more random damage spikes (although less random selfheal), it seems that from a selfheal perspective, it's still useless to go for expertise or hitcap. Actually, it would even be worse for hit or expertise over the hitcap, since you would need to sacrifice even more rating.

It's actually closer than i thought at the beginning. Still, this change results in a nerf of our selfheal (needed), aggro (no reason) and a really awkward gameplay. And the reason they give us: "On principle". Yea, thanks a lot.
Thorsschmatt
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:18 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Beefchief » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:28 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MdB-KsNp7c

Now imagine that with the C key getting stuck.

That's how it feels.
User avatar
Beefchief
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:57 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:03 am

vinylger wrote:Thank you for pointing this out. And in the name of all tanking "casualdins" out there PLEASE do not throw your "pally" away! :(


Don't worry, I won't be. I just don't like the changes, less so when they're unannounced and generate a lot of extra work for me. But it doesn't change much as far as end-game tanking goes, it just makes the rotation annoying (and by extension, makes me mad because I'm a whore for a nice, clean rotation).

I posted this over at EJ, but I'm reposting it here since it seems this is the natural direction the discussion is headed. I'll hopefully be incororating this into the Derivations thread at some point in the future, probably when I get around to dissecting each stat's effect on DTPS and self-HPS.

Theck wrote:It might be if we wanted to micromanage to that degree. But an average estimate of the self-healing-per-second (SHPS) gained through hit could be compared to the survivability cost in average damage-taken-per-second (DTPS).

I have udpated the priority queue simulation to match current conditions (CS buff, new seal proc mechanics, CS/HotR "broken" holy power implementation, 0 threat on WoG healing). They now report DPS, TPS, and SHPS. You can see that on average, at 2% hit and 10 expertise with 100% vengeance and a "SotR" talent/glyph build, WoG generates around 2.6k HPS at a cost of around 2k DPS (6k TPS). Increasing hit/exp to 8%/26 increases the self-healing to a little over 3k HPS, but increases the DPS/TPS cost to ~3.3k/10k respectively.

That means that 4% hit and 16 expertise (4% dodge redux, 4% parry redux) gives you about 600 HPS of healing. That means that each 1% hit is responsible for 600/12=50 HPS, and each 2 expertise (1% total dodge/parry redux) is worth the same. At ~120 hit rating per %, that makes each point of hit worth 50/120=0.42 HPS and each point of expertise worth 50/(2*30)=0.83 HPS.

By comparison, we can calculate the DTPS reduction of dodge/parry/mastery against a boss putting out 15k DPS (after mitigation and avoidance) on a tank with 30% total avoidance, 50% block. From the Derivations thread, the formula for avoidance and mastery should be:
Code: Select all
dD = D[-dAv-0.4*dB]/[1-Av-0.4*B]

where D is the incoming post-mitigation/avoidance DTPS, dD is the change in D due to the addition of dAv post-DR avoidance or dB block, and Av and B are your character sheet (post-DR) avoidance and block.

Assuming 12.5% post-DR dodge (or parry), one additional point of rating adds 0.0039% avoidance, or dAv=3.8792e-5 in our notation (Av=0.3, B=0.5). At D=15000 dps, this gives a dD=-1.16 DPS, a larger decrease in intake than the increase in self-healing from expertise or hit.

Under those same conditions, 1 point of mastery gives dD=-1.5 DPS, even larger (as expected).

Note that these scale linearly with D, so for avoidance to drop enough to match mastery it would take a D of 15k*0.83/1.16=10.7k DPS. So on some of the more weakly-hitting bosses, the argument could be made that expertise is a viable survivability stat. The boss would have to be hitting for under 5.4k DPS to make that same argument for hit, however, and both values get worse if you want to compare against mastery.

As far as threat, the results of the sim are fairly unsurprising. Our damage buffs mostly offset the DPS loss of lost holy power generation. All this change has accomplished is to make the rotation less stable, with more empty GCDs. That's arguably more annoying, but it's not the devastating hit to our threat or survivability that many want to make it out to be.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Njall » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:05 am

Damnit, the rum IS gone.
Image
Flight to Peru: £1000
Camping gear: £200
Native guide: £50
Sledgehammer to break down stone door: £12.99
Awakening one of the Great Old Ones: priceless.

There are some things man was not meant to know. For everything else,
there's Mastercard.
User avatar
Njall
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 4328
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:13 pm
Location: Thank heavens! Heavy Metal!

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:31 am

Last night I reforged myself up to 27 Exp (with glyph) and 6% hit, losing about 2.5-3% avoidance, then did Baradin Hold, Magmaw and Omnitron and Maloriak... Granted this is all Normal modes because I am not leet enough to be in heroic modes yet, but it really wasn't so bad. The one missed CS on the beginning of Magmaw leading to aggro loss on one attempt made me scream obscenities in Vent but it was an isolated incident.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10472
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby anowyn » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:53 am

Conversely, I ran last night with 2.39% hit and 10 exp (glyphed) and it was pretty awful. I don't run heroic raids, so I only saw magmaw, BH, Omnotron, and Halfus. The gaps were incredibly obvious and I remember once going to hit my slam button only to be unable to since I had no HP.

True I should have noticed the lack of HP, but I'm also busy running the fight since I am also the raid leader. This change is definitely a headache and a big nerf to the enjoyment I get from my class.

After the run, I sacked 2-3% avoid to get my exp up to 26. I'll probably have to dig into my mastery to get my hit back up to a reasonable level; so much for my dream of block capping for now.
Anowyn - The Asylum
Icecrown, US
anowyn
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:33 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Aerron » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:56 am

Sabindeus wrote:Last night I reforged myself up to 27 Exp (with glyph) and 6% hit, losing about 2.5-3% avoidance, then did Baradin Hold, Magmaw and Omnitron and Maloriak... Granted this is all Normal modes because I am not leet enough to be in heroic modes yet, but it really wasn't so bad. The one missed CS on the beginning of Magmaw leading to aggro loss on one attempt made me scream obscenities in Vent but it was an isolated incident.


This was pretty much my experience. I took the two new gem slots I got (on my BoE Chest and Belt), tossed in some Hit/Exp gems, and went to my Normal 10 man raid.

We downed Aglaroth, Magmaw, Omnitron, Maloriak and Atramedes ... and really I noticed no difference between last night and the previous night. There were maybe two moments where there was a slight hitch in my rotation but it wasn't a game changer.

Other than the two new gem slots, I did nothing to switch up my stats, so my CTC stayed relatively unchanged.
Aerron
 
Posts: 475
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:33 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Doxa » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:56 am

Way too much QQ in this thread, imho.

Inferences (and there are several of them here) that we will no longer be effective tanks are FAR overstated.

Overall, my threat went up last night as a result of the other changes.

Now, we haven't started heroic raiding yet but I doubt honestly that this is as bad as the QQ would make it sound.
Tanking Trash on Doxa with Consecration(Rank3) Since 2007, on Doxah with Thunderclap since 2009 and on Doxeh with Death and Decay since 2010

Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
Doxa
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:03 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Saltycracker » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:08 am

Aerron wrote:True, but if the issue is generating HoPo, only one of those abilities is relevant. And honestly, I'm not terribly concerned about AoE tanking atm, but more concerned about how this affects single-target (Boss) tanking, where I'm using CS instead of HoTR anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand, CS can still be dodged or parried.

So if on single, hard hitting targets Exp will get me HoPo with the least amount of CTC loss ... that's the way I'm going.


I guess people can pick their poison either way between picking up hit or expertise. I prefer to be hit capped just because Judgement and Avenger's Shield are very useful tools for picking up adds (i.e. Maloriak, Nefarian, Cho'gall)

I looked at our logs for last night and I still don't see any Dodges/Parries from a HoTR single target hit, so I am assuming that I got extremely lucky or HoTR is still rolling on the hit table.
Image

Big Crits - The Reality Webshow about Raiding in the World of Warcraft: Real People Conquering a Virtual World.
http://www.bigcrits.com
Saltycracker
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:46 am

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:10 am

Saltycracker wrote:I looked at our logs for last night and I still don't see any Dodges/Parries from a HoTR single target hit, so I am assuming that I got extremely lucky or HoTR is still rolling on the hit table.


HotR hasn't been generating a combat log entry on dodge/parry/miss since 4.0.3a or 4.0.1 (I forget which). I have no idea whether that's been fixed, but presumably it hasn't. Were you seeing any misses on WoL?

Don't feel too bad about it though, I drew the same conclusion until someone noticed a few missed HotR, figured out what was going on, and told me about it.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Meloree » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:13 am

Doxa wrote:Way too much QQ in this thread, imho.

Inferences (and there are several of them here) that we will no longer be effective tanks are FAR overstated.

Overall, my threat went up last night as a result of the other changes.

Now, we haven't started heroic raiding yet but I doubt honestly that this is as bad as the QQ would make it sound.


It isn't that bad. It's an annoying change, and a frustrating change, and a stupid change. In some ways, it's kind of a fun change, though. The rotation not being completely static is actually kind of interesting - although the idea of scaling away from interesting rotation to boring rotation in later tiers is inelegant. There's still no reason to get any hit or expertise - you end up with some empty GCDs when you have a bad RNG streak with CS, but it doesn't stop us from having a monstrous threat lead, or running SoI for the majority of a fight. I think the vast majority of the upset is from the "Stealth nerf" presentation of the change.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?