Remove Advertisements

Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:58 pm

theckhd wrote:
angelflavor wrote:I agree for the 1st 30 seconds of a fight that Seal of Truth is very useful, But after that Threat stops being an issue thanks to Vengeance. That's why I'm wondering if it's really worth Speccing into Seal of the Pure in 4.1 even after WoG nerf for something that most tanks only depend on for 30 seconds. Especially like you pointed out that many tanks seal swap after the pull and most fights last about 5 to 6 minutes.


I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Let me rephrase your argument:

1) Threat only matters in the first 30 seconds.
2) Therefore, we shouldn't spec SotP because all it gives us is single-target threat.
3) Instead we should spec Eternal Glory, which due WoG's new cooldown, translates into... single-target threat?

Worse yet, we're probably only using WoG when threat's already established, meaning it's single-target threat that's available when we need it least. At least SotP's extra threat is there during the part where threat matters.

I'm not sure that makes a compelling argument for EG over SotP.


I think what they meant is that people are more likely to use Seal of Insight after 30 seconds, so after 30 seconds the value of SotP essentially becomes 0, where as EG will be consistent.

At least- that's how I took the bolded section.
User avatar
Jeremoot
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby angelflavor » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:55 pm

Jeremoot wrote:
I think what they meant is that people are more likely to use Seal of Insight after 30 seconds, so after 30 seconds the value of SotP essentially becomes 0, where as EG will be consistent.

At least- that's how I took the bolded section.


Yea that's what I meant, but theck still answered my concern

theckhd wrote:Worse yet, we're probably only using WoG when threat's already established, meaning it's single-target threat that's available when we need it least. At least SotP's extra threat is there during the part where threat matters.


edit: grammar (my only weakness)
Image
Warning: Experimental Tank
"Warriors make you Sap. Paladins let you Sap"
User avatar
angelflavor
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:00 am

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:29 pm

So come 4.1 the decision becomes very clear:

For bonus threat on the initial pull or high Seal of Truth usage: SotP
For an overall threat/damage increase throughout the fight: EG

A personal preference or playstyle choice.
User avatar
Jeremoot
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Awyndel » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:40 pm

Well, even after 30 seconds, I'm not about to give up 20% of my dps for mostly non critical healing. There is such a thing as oppertunity cost. I have to make choices.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Cascadian » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:43 pm

angelflavor wrote:I agree for the 1st 30 seconds of a fight that Seal of Truth is very useful, But after that Threat stops being an issue thanks to Vengeance. That's why I'm wondering if it's really worth Speccing into Seal of the Pure in 4.1 even after WoG nerf for something that most tanks only depend on for 30 seconds. Especially like you pointed out that many tanks seal swap after the pull and most fights last about 5 to 6 minutes.


Is that true? Are most tanks swapping seals about 30 seconds into the fight? I must be out of it. I have been going with only Seal of Truth for so long now that I don't even have the other seals on my action bar or key bindings.

I am open to the concept of swapping seals about 30 seconds into a raid boss. But is it worth the loss of DPS and threat? Has the "Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches" weighed in on this one in another thread?

Thanks
Cascadian
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:44 pm

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Malthrax » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:01 am

theckhd wrote:
angelflavor wrote:I agree for the 1st 30 seconds of a fight that Seal of Truth is very useful, But after that Threat stops being an issue thanks to Vengeance. That's why I'm wondering if it's really worth Speccing into Seal of the Pure in 4.1 even after WoG nerf for something that most tanks only depend on for 30 seconds. Especially like you pointed out that many tanks seal swap after the pull and most fights last about 5 to 6 minutes.


I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Let me rephrase your argument:

1) Threat only matters in the first 30 seconds.
2) Therefore, we shouldn't spec SotP because all it gives us is single-target threat.
3) Instead we should spec Eternal Glory, which due WoG's new cooldown, translates into... single-target threat?

Worse yet, we're probably only using WoG when threat's already established, meaning it's single-target threat that's available when we need it least. At least SotP's extra threat is there during the part where threat matters.

I'm not sure that makes a compelling argument for EG over SotP.


I thought Word of Glory no longer generated any threat.
User avatar
Malthrax
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:23 am

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:56 am

Malthrax wrote:I thought Word of Glory no longer generated any threat.

It doesn't. But with a 20-second cooldown on WoG, all Eternal Glory does is let you follow 30% of your WoGs with SotR rather than having to build up holy power again. Hence it's a threat talent in 4.1, unless it changes.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7796
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Malthrax » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:16 am

theckhd wrote:
Malthrax wrote:I thought Word of Glory no longer generated any threat.

It doesn't. But with a 20-second cooldown on WoG, all Eternal Glory does is let you follow 30% of your WoGs with SotR rather than having to build up holy power again. Hence it's a threat talent in 4.1, unless it changes.


Ah, ok... too much blood in my caffiene system to put 2 and 2 together.

Since WoG has a 20 second cooldown, you can't use the Eternal Glory proc to 'double-WoG', thus the only thing you can use your free HP on is a SotR or Inq refresh; hence the "EG is a threat stat" moniker.

Gotcha.
User avatar
Malthrax
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:23 am

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Cascadian » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:58 am

I have read all of the posts in this thread and want to verify if I am taking away an optimal (or very close) pull for maximum threat. I am going to summarize this in my words.

1) (Divine Plea + Pop Wings) -- add 3 Holy Power and +20% damage for 20 seconds. These two can be macro'd on same key
2) Inquisition -- consume 3 Holy Power and +30% damage for 12 seconds
3) Exorcism -- 1.5 second cast time, so use it for your first hit on raid boss
4) Judgment -- instant cast as you run in towards boss to engage
5) Avengers Shield -- instant cast as you engage (still at distance or melee range)
(RAID CAN NOW HIT BOSS)
6) Start 939 rotation: Crusader Strike > (AS or Holy Wrath) > Crusader Strike > (AS or Judgement) > Crusader Strike > (Shield of Righteous or Word of Glory)

If you have a rogue in the group casting Tricks of Trade (ToT), then you should delay Avenging Wrath. This is because ToT (+15% damage for Tank) does not stack with Avenging Wrath (+20% damage). In that case, delay popping wings until your regular rotation (step 6). ToT will have worn off by then.

Is that an accurate summary of the optimal high threat pull for 4.0.6?
If not perfectly optimal, is it close enough that threat likely won't be an issue?

Thanks
Cascadian
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:44 pm

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:17 pm

My only suggestion would be to hold AW until Exo is almost finished. I believe you can activate AW during the Exo cast to buy yourself another 2 GCDs worth of coverage. At the very worst, you could macro it to Exo for the pull to gain 1 GCD.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7796
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:21 am

theckhd wrote:My only suggestion would be to hold AW until Exo is almost finished. I believe you can activate AW during the Exo cast to buy yourself another 2 GCDs worth of coverage. At the very worst, you could macro it to Exo for the pull to gain 1 GCD.



While AW does not trigger GCD, it can not be used while another cast bar is up. I just tested it on a dummy.

Oddly, the log reports "Gains Avenging wrath" before exorcism's damage hits.
However, my Damage values do not match.. My Wings+Exo damage is ~6400 each.. My Non-wing Exo's do ~5400.

My logs show, even if AW is "logged" before Exo, it only his for non-wing damage... Probably a latency error as AW is qued and cast immediately after exo, but the damage is still being determined & sent back.




Next question, when dealing with a Prot Pally MT, 1-2 Rogues, and 1-2 Hunters..

Whats the best way to handle Tricks/MD?

Obviously, If using 2 Tricks, they should be as close to 15 seconds apart as possible

But factor in MD;s.... Firstly, do Multiple misdirects stack? (e.g. 3 hunters all use MD at t=1sec) or do they need to be staggered (t=1, t=5, t=9)
And how does the game handle all the temporary threat? can only 1 source provide it at a time? (during the 4/6 seconds -- depending on rogue or hunter version)
Sur-Pseudo
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:44 pm

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:02 am

I'm not sure, but I believe it all stacks. So both rogues are probably going to use Tricks at the same time anyway, even though it would probably be better to stagger them.

Interesting note on the AW/Exo issue. It seems that it would make more sense to macro AW to Exo then, i.e.
/cast Avenging Wrath
/cast Exorcism
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7796
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Cascadian » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:27 am

theckhd wrote:Interesting note on the AW/Exo issue. It seems that it would make more sense to macro AW to Exo then, i.e.
/cast Avenging Wrath
/cast Exorcism


Using this pull, when do you feel it is safe to tell your raid that they can nuke the boss? Can they start when they see the wings popped?
Or should we tell them to start their 3 second countdown when they see the wings popped?

New summary for cliff notes version of this thread:
(based on 0/31/10 build)

1) Divine Plea : add 3 Holy Power
2) Inquisition : consume 3 Holy Power and +30% damage for 12 seconds
3) Pop Wings AW + Exorcism (same key macro) : +20% damage 20 seconds + 1.5 second cast time, use it for your first hit on raid boss
4) Judgment (*) : instant cast as you run in towards boss to engage
5) Avengers Shield (**) : instant cast as you engage (still at distance or melee range)
6) Start 939 rotation: Crusader Strike > (AS or Holy Wrath) > Crusader Strike > (AS or Judgement) > Crusader Strike > (Shield of Righteous or Word of Glory)

Exception if rogue is casting Tricks of Trade (ToT) on the pull.
Then delay your AW ( have different key for Exorcism only) until later in the rotation.

(*) Requires improved Judgment range (2/2) from Retribution talent tree
(**) Glyph for Avergers Shield single target +30% damage
Last edited by Cascadian on Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
Cascadian
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:44 pm

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Gab » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:35 am

Cascadian wrote:Using this pull, when do you feel it is safe to tell your raid that they can nuke the boss? Can they start when they see the wings popped? Or should we tell them to start their 3 second countdown when they see the wings popped?



Assuming a correctly executed pull this depends on a few factors.

-Are you getting Tricks or MD or both?
-How much dps/threat do your dps do and how well do they manage their threat?
-Does the boss need to be repositioned?

I would say that if you have Tricks and/or MD, the boss doesn't need to be moved and your dps aren't totally oblivious then your dps should be able to start dpsing as soon as the exorcism hits.

If any of those factors change, then that might need to be taken into account.
User avatar
Gab
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:54 am
Location: Wish you were here

Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Meloree » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:45 am

Cascadian wrote:
theckhd wrote:Interesting note on the AW/Exo issue. It seems that it would make more sense to macro AW to Exo then, i.e.
/cast Avenging Wrath
/cast Exorcism


Using this pull, when do you feel it is safe to tell your raid that they can nuke the boss? Can they start when they see the wings popped?


The same time they should always start. When the countdown reaches the cast-time of their opening spell (or approximately at 1 for melee). If DPS isn't precasting on pulls, there's something wrong with tank threat/threat management (by which I mean tricks/MD), and you're losing critical time. 3s of DPS time can be very valuable.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?