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Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Dem » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:33 am

Didn't we have this discussion about armour vs stam at some point?
Stamina gives a buffer to the healers. Physical Mitigation doesn't work against magic.
If healers are going oom and it's not down to poor execution (which it almost always will be) then chuck in some more mitigation, otherwise is this really still a contentious issue?
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Throb » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:17 am

theckhd wrote:Chimaeron - Feud Periods (heroic). Double Attacks. The sub-20% Mocking Shadows burn (heroic).


While I agree with your post, burning cooldowns for the Feuds on heroic is for physical mitigation. Yes, you can burn DP if you're not tanking during the Feud, but they are really reserved for when you are, in which case, it's all physical. As for the Mocking Shadows phase, that's physical again, IMO, in that Mocking Shadows itself isn't going to push you under 10k. It's going to take physical hits to do that. Reduce incoming physical damage and you're going to be able to take another hit.

As I said, I agree with your post, but I don't think heroic Chimaeron makes your point as well as the others you bolded.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:30 am

inthedrops wrote:Do not compare prior content to current game. It's not a valid or useful comparison.

Take the following combat log for heroic CoW on Nezir as an example of why the Mastery strategy becomes questionable.

Permafrost is an ability that without cooldowns or resist hits for roughly 50k every second for 3 seconds. In other words, 150k in 3 seconds. Very often, the last tick of Permafrost coincides with a melee hit between 30k and 50k. In other words, 200k damage in 3 seconds.

Code: Select all
[23:15:32.764] Paperplate casts Divine Protection
[23:15:33.154] Nezir Permafrost Paperplate 23914 (R: 14600)
[23:15:34.369] Nezir Permafrost Paperplate 31960 (R: 5058)
[23:15:35.182] Nezir Permafrost Paperplate 24983 (R: 15252)
[23:15:36.308] Nezir hits Paperplate 23575 (B: 15717)
[23:15:42.744] Paperplate's Divine Protection fades from Paperplate


Now, the above numbers only show 104k damage lasting a bit longer than 3 seconds. So you might ask yourself...."That's not so bad? Surely mastery would be fine?"

But I'm setting you up :)
First, I was at 285 resist during the fight (using resist elixir). Second, I had my divine protection glyphed for 40% magical damage reduction. Third, I step out of melee range near the end of the breath to try to buy an extra 0.5 second or so for a heal to land before he hits me.

(BTW, would love to see some discussion about the merits or not with those two combined)

I guess it's relevant to note that my fully buffed health in this example was 183k. Healing is extremely intense. There are two healers healing me during this crap. And more often than not one has to move out of a frost patch. Meaning that there are times where only one healer can really get the job done.

There is nothing this dangerous in the regular version of the fights that I can think of off hand.

Stamina really is an important stat and not to be dismissed.

Sorry for the derail.


Trying to stay on topic here, but it is quite difficult, nor do I have nifty logs or # crunching. However, I feel that you completely made the point for why in general Mastery is better than stam. ( Again different fights it is good to have different things) Just for your example above though. For progression fights/magic I always use resist elixir anyways, mainly just so I have the battle elixir for more mastery. It would be kind of silly not to glyph for divine protection tanking nezir. I don't know every detail of heroic conclave mind you. Here is my theory though. All that magic damage that you took was predictable, and you had a 100 percent way to avoid it. Whereas you have no choice but to take a 40-50k hit unblocked. I'm a big advocate of the dodge on use vial, and the hellscreams reach mastery. The mastery trinket gives you enough resistance to resist the same amount as a glyphed divine protection Plus I believe you use two tanks for Nezir and switch at like 6 stacks or what not. I have between 177-180ish k HP raid buffed. I should know for sure what I have, but meh.

I am the first to say that stam isn't useless, but I will say that in most cases ( without #'s to back it up) mastery is better * cough chimeraon*.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:14 am

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:However, I feel that you completely made the point for why in general Mastery is better than stam.


Er... what? There's absolutely no way you should draw that conclusion from that parse.

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:All that magic damage that you took was predictable, and you had a 100 percent way to avoid it. Whereas you have no choice but to take a 40-50k hit unblocked.


His parse has a single physial attack for about 40k, and 115k magical damage (much of which was resisted). While the magic damage is predictable, there's no "100 percent way to avoid it." At best, he can guarantee a certain level of mitigation through cooldowns and resists (from his parse, his guaranteed resist is as low as 14%, though it would be higher with the Hellscream's reach cooldown active). But he is absolutely going to take a large amount of magical damage there, period.

The physical attack has a good chance to be either avoided (~25%) or blocked (~45ish%) just due to his base stats in either gearing strategy. And an additional 10% block doesn't guarantee he'll block it, it just improves the chance that the 40k hit will only hit him for 25k.

In other words, he has the choice of an extra 10% chance to reduce the damage by 15k, or 18k life. There is literally no possible scenario here where he would die with the Stamina but not with the mastery. The stamina guarantees he'd survive the melee in the maximum amount of situations based on the damage intake. There's literally no way you can argue that that parse favors mastery over stamina, simply because of the types and sizes of damage involved.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Gaxby » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:07 am

theckhd wrote:But he is absolutely going to take a large amount of magical damage there, period.


I feel this is true... to a degree. There are ways to predictably mitigate a large amount of magical damage that do make a significant different and should not be underestimated. My guild was doing Argaloth today and I had glyphed Divine Protection while under the effect of the Prismatic Elixir with Mixology. The amount of Meteor Slash damage I was able to mitigate every minute was ridiculous.

theckhd wrote:There's literally no way you can argue that that parse favors mastery over stamina, simply because of the types and sizes of damage involved.


Theck, doesn't it really boils down to having multiple gear sets and switching different gear for different encounter? There is no one set of gearing strategy that is ideal for every encounter just like how there is no one spec that is ideal for every encounter. Have a mastery set, have a stamina set, and swap according to the boss fight, although I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "balance" of mastery and stamina (in terms of min/maxing, wouldn't a heavy mastery or stamina strategy be better than a jack-of-all-trades balanced strategy?)
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby inthedrops » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:13 am

It's really a fight you have to tank to understand. I tried to keep the post small and left out what I thought was less important to keep it clear.

For example:

1. Permafrost is cast as often as every 15 seconds. So that 40% reduction is only available for some of them. You're left with the weaker Ardent Defender very often.
2. Wind Chill stacks on the tank for up to 4 stacks (if you do it right) increasing Frost damage by 10% for each stack. The numbers I posted were likely with 1 or 2 stacks, not 4.
3. I didn't include the fact that you don't always go into a Permafrost with full health.

The hardest part to explain, and why you just need to be there, is the healing. This isn't the case where you've got healing just standing there able to spam heals. You've got two, and they have to move ASAP out of frost patches on the ground or they will die. And a cooldown alone (recceiving no heals) is not enough to keep you alive without some crazy resist RNG and avoiding the melee hits.

I'm not trying to say that every fight in heroic has these characteristics. I'm not saying mastery isn't good. But it comes down to what's practical. What's practical is that there ARE fights where damage is quick and intense, and it's not practical (yet) to have two complete sets of gear, one gemmed full mastery and one gemmed for stamina to swap. So you end up doing what's practical.

I'm sure in a month or so we'll have enough old gear around to carry multiple sets but for now I just don't have it.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:25 am

You Gaxby are absolutely right. Again I don't know the heroic encounter well enough, but I was under the impression that you used 3 tanks. One on Anshal, 2 for Nezir, and you have to get your stacks off at like 6 or risk dieing.

That parse's magic damage could be from him at 5 stacks/2 stacks. Again the magic damage is predictable, if anything I'd since we are a paladin site here, I'm going to mention bubble. I mean divine protection the initial permafrost, AD/ hellscreams the second. If you are at 6 stacks at that point go ahead and bubble taunt during permafrost, cancel aura before your taunt wears off ( take 1 tick of damage to be safe). Other tank comes over eventually and you go over to other side.

I still see mastery as better on that encounter because of how well you can handle the spells/magic damage. The only fight where I would view stamina as better is if I was tanking drakes on heroic Halfus during furious roars... which I just don't because its stupid not to have a DK/feral druid do one. However, you have enough time to pop a damage reduction CD at 50 percent.. Squeeze in a LoH in between stun.

Lets see... other than that I can't think of one situation where hellscreams reach/stam trinket ( dodge on use) isn't the better combo. I feel like maybe I should post something like this under gear discussion/advice, but really your trinket choices are the only area where you have significant choice of stam over mastery. Sure you can gem mastery/stam in a yellow socket or go pure stam or pure mastery. However, the only difference between my and iinthedrops gearing choice is probably our trinkets.Which I can't really tell because he has hit trinkets on currently. He still has mastery gems which I presume he doesn't change out pending on boss fight. I understand that stam isn't useless and that was probably the point he was trying to make. However, your only choice between stam is pretty much what trinket you are going to use that will make a significant difference.

In any scenario I can think of those are the two best to use. When I'm not rushing to get homework done because I stay up all night watching heroic video's I'll make a post about each boss encounter and when to use each/such. Under maybe basic training/gear advice.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:33 am

inthedrops wrote:It's really a fight you have to tank to understand. I tried to keep the post small and left out what I thought was less important to keep it clear.

For example:

The hardest part to explain, and why you just need to be there, is the healing. This isn't the case where you've got healing just standing there able to spam heals. You've got two, and they have to move ASAP out of frost patches on the ground or they will die. And a cooldown alone (recceiving no heals) is not enough to keep you alive without some crazy resist RNG and avoiding the melee hits.
.


I'm not there to see the healz, all I know is that if you have a druid you have HoTs on you while hes moving. a Hpali has Bubble and heal if he really needs to, sacrfice, aura mastery,holy shock while moving and word of glory. Disc priest have a shield and pain sup if they need, holy priest has GS, lightwell, HoTs on you. Resto shaman is probably not the best healer for that area.

Once you reach a certain amount of resist with that hellscreams reach mastery trinket it isn't RNG you are guaranteed to resist a certain amount. There's a post around here somehwere or I read the values from a chart on elitist jerks, but pretty much you are sitting at 50 percent guaranteed resist with just hellscreams reach and resistance aura. Not to mention its not like you aren't healing yourself if your healer is moving. If you literally did nothing while 1 of your healers was moving out of an ice patch there would be a chance of you dieing. Like I said overall this is just one fight. I'll make a more detailed one when I have time.

Oh not to mention LoH is fairly effective and Guardian of Ancient Kings if things get dicey. I mean I doubt you'd ever have to use all of those during one rotation on the platform.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Kihra » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:15 am

Throb wrote:
theckhd wrote:Chimaeron - Feud Periods (heroic). Double Attacks. The sub-20% Mocking Shadows burn (heroic).


While I agree with your post, burning cooldowns for the Feuds on heroic is for physical mitigation. Yes, you can burn DP if you're not tanking during the Feud, but they are really reserved for when you are, in which case, it's all physical. As for the Mocking Shadows phase, that's physical again, IMO, in that Mocking Shadows itself isn't going to push you under 10k. It's going to take physical hits to do that. Reduce incoming physical damage and you're going to be able to take another hit.

As I said, I agree with your post, but I don't think heroic Chimaeron makes your point as well as the others you bolded.


I wasn't trying to make a point about Mastery vs. Stamina with that post. I was simply citing examples where cooldowns are used when you are at high health rather than low health. That does apply to Heroic Chimaeron, since you're either the Double Attack tank during the offline phase or you're taking over at the start of the offline phase. In both cases you had better be topped off, and it's advisable to have cooldowns running to reduce the risk of getting gibbed.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:21 am

It is and always has been a balancing act between health and mitigation, its just we were spoiled by Wrath where health could cover up a lot of mistakes. Now that healer mana is a bigger issue, health without sufficient mitigation isn't the best solution.

When I earlier posted about my experience with algalon25, yes it was older content, but it is a hardmode encounter with mechanics not unlike Cata raids, that I did once the new talents came out. DivineLight is the new medium heal, and can be briefly sustainable for a holy pally who is using seal of insight to recover mana from the boss. Even spamming it, a pally tank with obscene health but very low avoidance/mitigation was impossible to keep up, whereas a lower health bear tank was workable.

The criticism was, what about special encounters with obscene boss damage. Well, most magical and boss burst damage focused on a tank comes from spells/abilities with obvious mechanics that can be prepared for whereas physical damage tends to be more steady(except for several consecutive unmitigated hits) over time. For obvious incoming burst damage, that is what cooldowns (tank and raid wide), interupts, movement and propper elixiring/buffing are for. But for steady damage, high levels of mitigation can be more usefull for preserving healer mana than obscene health pools.

For obvious spike damage, or the rare physical driven spike damage from 3 unmitigated hits, there are other abilities. I can put Hand of Sacrifice on a tank, I can reluctently spam Flash of Light. However Flash of Light is a mana killer, almost as bad as regular Cleansing. If you make your healer constantly hit you with FoL, no health pool will keep you alive. Whereas a healthy total avoidance/mitigation can reduce the risk of 3 consecutive unmitigated hits to much lower than 1%, vastly increasing survival against steady boss abilities and lowering the risk of healer OOM.

Yes, you do need a certain base health pool to be credible against a boss, but after that level mitigation becomes much more valuable.

I am also under the impression that the new Parry mechanic was 50% mitigation for 2 consecutive strikes, so it is no longer strictly avoidance, and is really mitigation.

If the boss ability that does 170K dmg comes after 2mins, but your healers go OOM after 1.5mins because your mitigation is too low, your big health pool doesn't really matter, does it?
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby inthedrops » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:38 am

2Cute2BeStr8,

I was probably doing my dailies or a heroic if I'm wearing hit trinkets. I've been holding off on purchasing teir legs for Baradin Hold this week (hoping they might drop) so they are still gemmed with mastery. Everything else should be converted over as I mentioned.

I know you're just trying to offer counter arguments, suggestions, different approaches, etc. But anything I would say in response at this point will just fall into the "do it and see for yourself" category and make me look like a jerk. But that's what it boils down to.

Just some brief examples...

aura mastery

AM gets used for Ultimates. There are 4 ultimates and we rotate various raid cooldowns for them (2 per ultimate as the ultimate lasts a long time)

Hpali has Bubble


Long cooldown, costs a GCD (remember, we're talking about 3 seconds here) and they still have to move at some point. I believe they use their bubble when they sac the nature tank.

sacrfice


Sometimes available during emergency, but they are needed over on the Nature tank (nature boss hits for almost 200k melee hits post ultimate). Note that we run with two holy paladins. But it's less of an issue as that's the only time cooldowns are needed.

Disc priest have a shield and pain sup


We have 2. Disc priest must alternate shields for ultimates or people die. Pain supressions are available however, and I use them.

hellscreams reach mastery trinket


I'd use this for sure, don't have it yet. It will help a lot.

Not to mention its not like you aren't healing yourself if your healer is moving


Yes, constantly healing myself :) The healers make sure to never be standing close to each other so that they won't both have to move at the same time.

Oh not to mention LoH is fairly effective and Guardian of Ancient Kings if things get dicey


GoAK is part of my standard Permafrost rotation. LoH is used often, especially during tank and healer swaps as that's when things sometimes get dicey and where external cooldowns often become needed because I have to use my own prematurely.

I mean I doubt you'd ever have to use all of those during one rotation on the platform


You need 2 to 3 cooldowns per rotation on your platform. You're in and out I believe (based on the debuff timer) about every 40 seconds or so, I'm not sure from memory)
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby inthedrops » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:42 am

Hrobertgar wrote:health without sufficient mitigation isn't the best solution.


We agree on this. Well put actually.

Hrobertgar wrote:If the boss ability that does 170K dmg comes after 2mins, but your healers go OOM after 1.5mins because your mitigation is too low, your big health pool doesn't really matter, does it?


In the one example I gave, it's as a burst of 100 to 200k about every 15 seconds.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:50 am

Gaxby wrote:
theckhd wrote:There's literally no way you can argue that that parse favors mastery over stamina, simply because of the types and sizes of damage involved.


Theck, doesn't it really boils down to having multiple gear sets and switching different gear for different encounter? There is no one set of gearing strategy that is ideal for every encounter just like how there is no one spec that is ideal for every encounter.


Of course not, but I never suggested there was. I'm only pointing out that trying to make the statement "that particular parse shows mastery is better than stamina" is preposterous, because it doesn't support that statement at all.

Gaxby wrote:Have a mastery set, have a stamina set, and swap according to the boss fight, although I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "balance" of mastery and stamina (in terms of min/maxing, wouldn't a heavy mastery or stamina strategy be better than a jack-of-all-trades balanced strategy?)


Not at this point in the game, because you probably don't have multiple copies of gear to gem and enchant, nor do most tanks go to the expense of regemming from encounter to encounter.

A better goal would be to make sure that you can hit the target stat levels you want with just a few item swaps, like trinkets. If you gem your gear such that with dual stamina trinkets you have enough EH to survive the bursts you're seeing in the content you're facing, then you can always swap out for mastery trinkets on fights where that extra EH isn't necessary (and presumably mastery gives you better returns).

Dem wrote:Didn't we have this discussion about armour vs stam at some point?
Stamina gives a buffer to the healers. Physical Mitigation doesn't work against magic.
If healers are going oom and it's not down to poor execution (which it almost always will be) then chuck in some more mitigation, otherwise is this really still a contentious issue?


So, here's the reason I keep hammering home this point. This community (and to some extent the WoW community in general) tends to tunnel-vision when it comes to gearing. People come up with examples that "prove" X mastery is equal to Y stamina, and from those examples conclude "the best gearing strategy is to stack stat X at the expense of all else." I'm equally guilty of that on occasion, which is what I learned from that epic Armor vs. Stamina thread.

In Wrath, the general mantra was to stack Stamina to the sky, because combat mechanics were such that the boss could 2- or 3-shot you in a matter of seconds. And we tunnel-visioned that to the point that we missed some key points about mitigation. Now in Cataclysm, combat has changed drastically, and the tone has shifted to "OMG mastery is awesome, stack mastery to the sky, and fuck stamina." I don't think that's any better, because it leads to lazy tanks that don't really think about their gearing choices.

Mastery is extremely good in 5-man heroics, and still quite strong in most of the normal-mode raid encounters. It will always be a strong choice for many of the same reasons armor is a strong choice. But if stacking mastery and ignoring stamina puts you below a "comfortable" EH threshold for the encounter, it's the wrong choice.

If the boss regularly gets 3-4 hits (blocked, unblocked, magic, or a mix of all of those) off on you between big heals, then you definitely want enough EH to survive that. Once you reach that "comfortable" plateau of EH, mitigation does becomes the more attractive option. What I want to avoid is having the community decide that "mastery wins" and have tanks follow that strategy only to be frustrated when they step into heroic modes and get routinely smashed by the boss.

People seem very quick to declare a "winner" without being careful to qualify their statements. "Mastery is the better choice" is meaningless without context, but that doesn't seem to stop people from repeating it. As we're already seeing from heroic modes, the tanks that are succeeding in those encounters are following a more balanced strategy. They're certainly picking up mastery where they can, but they're also being careful not to drop below that "comfortable" EH threshold while they're doing it.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:54 am

inthedrops wrote:
Hrobertgar wrote:health without sufficient mitigation isn't the best solution.


We agree on this. Well put actually.


I'd agree as well. And add that mitigation without sufficient health is just as bad. That is why I keep coming back to this topic.

You can't simply stack one stat and be a good tank anymore. The Wrath days of "X to the sky" are gone. Gearing has become more complicated, and I daresay more intelligent, and people need to wake up to that fact.

In my opinion, the more people think about these sorts of questions ("How do I usually die," "Are my healers running OOM," "What part of this fight is most likely to be lethal"), the better tanks they'll end up being.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Malthrax » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:07 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:I am also under the impression that the new Parry mechanic was 50% mitigation for 2 consecutive strikes, so it is no longer strictly avoidance, and is really mitigation.


This was reverted eight months ago during early beta. Parry is identical in all aspects to Dodge.
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