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Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby PsiVen » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:53 am

Greengo wrote:Block cap is brilliant on this fight, especially just after pull, when you tanking 3 dragons (maybe 4, soon? ;)) hitting you for 32-34k max. Smooth damage, no spikes, easy to heal.


I can't imagine wanting to do pre-4.0.6 Heroic Halfus-10 with 20k less HP, since even if it reduces melee burst it leaves me susceptible to melee + Fireball Barrage burst which is a very real danger. I have reviewed many, many deaths on this fight from a bunch of blocked hits plus some fireballs.

Looking at your WoL, it's 25-man with Time Warden released at the start so you aren't taking Fireball Barrage. In this case sure, it makes sense for you to tank a bunch of drakes with block cap because you can have plenty of sustained healing to keep you alive. There aren't a lot of situations like that, Chimaeron being the only other one that I can think of.

It's close. I'm at about 92% right now, and have 4pc. Only the chest is 372. If I had a mastery/avoid weapon (i.e. Acrid Death) and switched out some of the avoid/avoid off-set pieces for more mastery-heavy options (agi/mastery/threat for example) I think I could reach it while keeping 4-piece.


I'm sitting around 92% now as well, but I don't feel like I will ever be block capped in my general tanking setup. If I swap in a trinket for 96%, I'm still quite far from capped. Regemming every slot for mastery seems unwise unless I want to use that rig for every single fight, or collect an entire extra set of gear.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:58 am

PsiVen wrote:I'm sitting around 92% now as well, but I don't feel like I will ever be block capped in my general tanking setup. If I swap in a trinket for 96%, I'm still quite far from capped. Regemming every slot for mastery seems unwise unless I want to use that rig for every single fight, or collect an entire extra set of gear.


I'm not sure why you think it's unwise. I went from a balanced stam/mastery gemming approach to full mastery about a week ago. The results were fairly small; 4k HP for about 2% block. Not significant enough to make a difference on any fight, really.

If I went from full-mastery to full stam-whoring, the difference would still be <10k health for <5% block; 4 red sockets, 3 blue sockets, 1 yellow socket at 20 mast -> 30 stam each, 1 prismatic at 40 mast->60 stam, for a total of -200 mastery rating and +300 stamina. That's around 2.5% block lost and 4.6k health gained after raid buffs. Again, not all that significant. To make a noticeable difference, you'd need to start making extremely inefficient stamina->mastery trades from enchants, which wouldn't be advisable in any situation.

The simple fact is that at this point, gemming really isn't that important. Before, I incorrectly assumed that it was just more subtle now, and thus more interesting. When in fact, it's just more irrelevant. The choice of items is far more relevant, as that can cause significant swings in CTC; you can lose upwards of 200 mastery rating by swapping out a single item (though you generally can't trade it directly for stamina in those circumstances).

I'm not sure what your heroic Halfus strategy looks like, but on 25-man we release 4 drakes at the start (all but Slate), and I tank Time Warden + Whelps, and TW+Whelps+Halfus with cooldowns up about 45 seconds into the fight. I've had much more success with mastery there simply because of the sheer damage intake in the first portion of the fight, before the Whelps die. Fireball barrage damage is 100% avoidable if the Whelps are released, so I see little point in gearing for damage I don't take.

I think this mastery-heavy set-up is better for heroic Chimaeron, which is what we're currently working on, so I'll keep it for now. After checking with my healers, I may go back to my stam-heavy setup for later bosses.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Awyndel » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:34 pm

Well I've been block capped in raid buffs for a couple of weeks now. Don't need any procs or anything it's stable. We have been progressing halfus and chimaeron 25 man hc ( and killed them eventually :P ) . My experiences are very positive. The damage intake is very stable.

Personally I think this is the way to go. It gives the best EH for physical damage, and almost the best mitigation. In most current fights the magic damage is either small, or predictable enough to plan cooldowns on ( not just your own ) . The only bad apple I can see is getting stunned on halfus p2, but with plenty of cooldowns to assign, and 3 tanks to kill, we have not been having problems there. You need heavy cd's there anyway, and the block part is godly for phase 1.

If anybody else has experienced any big spikes on other fights that we cannot block ( incl magic/bleed etc ) , please discuss :) , because that's the major issues this strategy could have.

The way I have been going about it is like this. I want to cap with as much health as possible. This means I just calculate the oppertunity cost of CTC vs stamina. Basicly the ilvl cost of changing a yellow/green gem, or a trinket ( without proc/usage ) , because this is what we will be paying when tuning. This grossly increases the value of mastery, and stamina. It makes avoidance less interesting, because it is expensive. This will lower your avoidance, but you can block cap with a relatively higher health pool. Putting a mastery item in every single slot, I can now even gem half of my gems back to stamina ( wich is why my gemming rules look like chaos ) .

This means threat comes last. A pretty hefty cost. But personally I am not worried about it. Picking up mobs is something that you will need help on anyway ( tricks/md/salv ) , unless you have a LOT of threat. And we have been managing by working together in my guild. Once vengeance kicks in, there are no problems, and the high survivibility really pays off on long hard mode fights.

There is also no tier set bonus in there. I realise the 4set is powerfull, but it is only once every 3 mins. And normally the normal length of the buff covers enough time to make it, it's only usefull for chaining cd's. Personally I just assign a PS or Hosalv if I need an extra cd. The cost of not using a mastery item in every slot, would just be too high for my gearing strategy.

For stats I have been using something roughly like this. Dodge/parry 1, str 0.26, agility 0.61, mastery 2.5, stamina 1.67 ( 2x5/1.5, ilvl cost I mentioned ) .

I realise that in practice this means there are quite a bit of BOE/dps items interesting, and not everybody will have access to those. For heroic there are also quite a bit of dps items that would be interesting, but since atm I am fairly well geared I don't feel like arguing my way into taking those from my raid.

Technically, above the cap, alchemy/lw would be best. But I am currently running jc/bs for the flexibility, and because I don't want to spent money changing them every content patch.

Feel free to check my armory or my guilds WOL.
Last edited by Awyndel on Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Kihra » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:40 pm

Awyndel wrote:If anybody else has experienced any big spikes on other fights that we cannot block ( incl magic/bleed etc ) , please discuss :) , because that's the major issues this strategy could have.


If you're tanking Blazing Bone Constructs on Magmaw that's a pretty good example of a fight where I think Stamina is pretty potent while learning. You take a ton of magic damage on that fight if you're add tanking. Even if you play flawlessly you're eating the raidwide Lava Spew, the targeted Magma Spit and the Fiery Slashes performed by the adds. Assume you don't play flawlessly while learning, then you can add in Blazing Inferno, Pillar of Flame, and the final phase of shadow damage.

My own strategy has been to gem/enchant for Mastery, but I haven't bothered with block capping. I'm only about 8% off the block cap anyway at this point if I equip Mirror (about 12% if I don't), but the proc from Symbiotic Worm block caps me whenever I get in trouble anyway.

On Magmaw I wear double stamina trinkets instead of Mirror.

Awyndel wrote:There is also no tier set bonus in there. I realise the 4set is powerfull, but it is only once every 3 mins. And normally the normal length of the buff covers enough time to make it, it's only usefull for chaining cd's. Personally I just assign a PS or Hosalv if I need an extra cd. The cost of not using a mastery item in every slot, would just be too high for my gearing strategy.


I realize this is a matter of opinion, but I think the 4pc is utterly amazing, and I can't imagine tanking without it. I've done 6 hard modes so far, and I've found the 4pc to be hugely useful on many of those hard modes. So many of the fights have danger periods that last ~20 seconds, and having the 18 sec CD is so nice.

It's amazing for the last dangerous 18 seconds of each aberrations phase on Maloriak, it can cover you from 70 to 90 energy on Nezir, it can cover you through the entire buffed Anshal phase, it covers a complete offline phase on Chimaeron or can be used in the last phase, it's great at the start of the Halfus fight when you're tanking a bunch of drakes, etc.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Awyndel » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:45 pm

Would swapping to double stamina trinkets not be enough for magmaw?

I agree the 4-set is very subjective :P . All things have their uses, and ways to replace them.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Kihra » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:08 pm

Awyndel wrote:Would swapping to double stamina trinkets not be enough for magmaw?


Yeah I think it's enough. Really I don't find gemming choices to be particularly relevant to any encounter. The tradeoff in Mastery vs. Stamina from regemming just isn't large enough to make any real difference.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:20 pm

Not using the mirror on Magmaw strikes me as an odd choice, given you just listed how much magical damage is present in that fight. Leaving aside the mastery, the resistance use is a pretty powerful cooldown in its own right.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Treck » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:01 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Not using the mirror on Magmaw strikes me as an odd choice, given you just listed how much magical damage is present in that fight. Leaving aside the mastery, the resistance use is a pretty powerful cooldown in its own right.

Mirror on Magmaw might seem like a good choise, but i wouldnt say its much stronger than other trinkets.
It might seem good to reduce the fire aoe you take once in a while by using the trinket, but thats never whats going to kill you tbh.
You will die from beeing picked up, adds hitting you, or meele beeing stupid and not jumping up properly when they should.
I cant remember a single death ive had that is cuz of the firespit, the raid might take a lot of dmg from it, and it might almost kill them combined with a meteor, but a tank cant get the meteor, and the fire will do maybe 50% of your health in dmg, once every like 40sec?
And its not really that spiky, and if you have 2-3 holypallys blowing LoD right as the aoe hits, youll be topped off by their Beacons the same sec it hits anyway, its also not one big burst of dmg, i think its like 3 ticks of say 20k each (10-15% of all your dmg taken is spelldmg. if its hardmode, you might be tanking adds/boss with the 50% armor debuff, making the normal hits a lot worse than the small ammount of spelldmg you take).

While it would reduce dmg taken by some ammount, i wouldnt say it would increase your survivability by much at all.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Kihra » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:22 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Not using the mirror on Magmaw strikes me as an odd choice, given you just listed how much magical damage is present in that fight. Leaving aside the mastery, the resistance use is a pretty powerful cooldown in its own right.


It's just a slight preference. I'm sure you'd do fine with Mirror also.

We tend to have raid-wide CDs for the only predictable source of magic damage, the Lava Spew. The rest is completely unpredictable 1-shot attacks, so you have no idea when to pop the Mirror to protect from them. Magma Spit is just RNG and Fiery Slash doesn't happen at any precise time either.

The extra Stamina helps too if you're a baddie like me and stand in stuff that you shouldn't. It can be hard to see some of the dangerous ground effects on that fight when you have adds in your face and healing ground effects, etc. :)

Also, how much magic damage you take also depends on if you use two tanks or three tanks. If you use two tanks, then you spend a bunch of time on Magmaw taking only physical damage and you are also protected from the Magma Spit (since Magma Spit won't hit Magmaw tanks). As Treckie said, you also end up taking physical hits with Sweltering Armor when you use the two-tank strategy, so that skews things even more in favor of physical damage over magical.

We're currently using three tanks and I'm the dedicated add tank, so it's more like 60/40 physical/magic, since I get hit by Magma Spit, Lava Spew and Fiery Slash throughout the fight.
Last edited by Kihra on Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:38 pm

Admittedly we've stuck with a three tank tactic for Magmaw, so I never have to worry about the armor debuff or mangle. I'm just on the adds, and looking at our last two kills melee damage was only about 50% of my total damage intake. I generally use it as an extra safety measure if I happen to have two adds up at the same time as a lava spew's going off.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Kihra » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:43 pm

Rhiannon wrote:I generally use it as an extra safety measure if I happen to have two adds up at the same time as a lava spew's going off.


Yeah that makes sense to me.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Treck » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:23 pm

Oh, and on the stamina vs mastery not.

I went ALL OUT for mastery this reset, to see the differance.
Mastery trinket on all fights, and mastery gems everywhere, like going crazy.

End results: ???????

I have no clue...
I couldnt tell the differance honestly, and no healer could tell any noticable differance eather.

This might be an issue for us since we are used to most fights now tho.
Also, note this is NOT for Sinestra, Alakir or Nefarian, as we havnt killed them yet this week as were killing them off on tuesday.
Those are the 3 fights where i personally think sta is most usefull, since most other fights are a bit meh on the whole tanks taking dmg part (maybe not nefarian, i think hes so happy to have a toy to play with that hes very carefull not to break it, especially when its so white and shiny)
Alakir is mostly naturedmg, and blocking or not blocking the adds attacks arnt that much of importance, compared to the naturedmg you take all the time.
Sinestra p3 is just P1 on crack, and im tanking adds, they do just the same in p3 as in p1 (only sinestra is on crack not the adds) so the breath is all that is ramped up in p3 for me = stamina.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Treck » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:50 pm

Update; (after a mastery heavy reset)
Alakir: Im tanking adds in p2, mastery is a non issue, this fight is all about sta from my PoV.
Nefarian: Tanking Nefarian, both mastery and Sta is potent here, both are going to work just fine, going for one or the other is not going to hinder you from taking it down, id prefer sta for the electicute/fires/lava, but its so predictable that it shouldnt make that much of a differnace.
Chogall: It reminds a lot of Nefarian tbh, both sets works just fine, and going for one wont set you back really.
Sinestra: I gotta say it felt a lot more risky running with mastery there, im taking care of the whelps almost the whole fight, so its lots and lots of small hits all the time, beeing blockcapped or not is not gonna be noticable, a more sta based gearing would prolly be the best.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Awyndel » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:26 am

Well for the hard modes I am currently progressing, block cap just works wonders for me. And if there is a task that needs more EH, I just let my warrior do that task, since he's geared for EH. But if I do encounter a fight where I NEED the health, I will just swap trinkets, or in the worst case, change gems. Right tool for the right job :P .
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Trögunst » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:17 pm

Hey, if i am tanking normal raids, soon starting HC raiding, should i get rid of my hit rating? And just go all out on mastery/parry/dodge? My guildies thinks its good to be hit and expertise capped, but i feel like i wanna go all on mitigation.
So should i go hit and expertise capped or all on mitigation?
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