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Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby wrathblood » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm

Something I forgot to mention was PotI.

Against Magmaw, my WoGs only had 19% overheal not because I could control the time of the WoG, but because I could control the "who". The hunter on Spout duty took almost 2/3 as much damage as I did, and I was WoGGing him right and left. Similarly, on Conclave the Frost DK frequently pulled threat on the nature adds (taking a bunch of damage) and on Halfus the mage had a big "shoot fireballs here" sign on his head. After checking the logs the next morning and seeing how often I cast WoG on other folks, I immediately spec'ed into PotI.

This might be a utility issue as it actively decreases the healing recevied by the tank, though it increases the healing available tot he raid.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby 99sitr » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:26 pm

wrathblood wrote:I often do this as well, but don't forget that DPS matters sometimes too, even when threat doesn't. Tank DPS with Vengeance can easily account for a 4k DPS difference if you stop using WoG spam, which can be a significant amount of RDPS in a 10-man. Berserk timers are not the only failure modes; fights like Al'akir P2 and Cho'gall are strongly time sensitive. For these reasons I would never drop the extremely high potential of Sacred Duty, even if it does frequently get wasted by parries.


My dps is typically around 6700-11000 depending on the fight, I could probably bump that with the associated SD'd SotR's here and there. Everything is situational for us at this point in time and probably in the next week when we get into heroics I might pick it back up if there is a need for it. But on the general we have above average players in the raid who watch the threat meter and the encounter with as close to 100% awareness as possible so that helps, and none are too shy to speak up if they feel they are threat capped.

BTW I FRAPS all my raid encounters so those that want to see the fights from a tank perspective just lete know and I will finish uploading the rest.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:54 pm

wrathblood wrote:Something I forgot to mention was PotI.

Against Magmaw, my WoGs only had 19% overheal not because I could control the time of the WoG, but because I could control the "who". The hunter on Spout duty took almost 2/3 as much damage as I did, and I was WoGGing him right and left. Similarly, on Conclave the Frost DK frequently pulled threat on the nature adds (taking a bunch of damage) and on Halfus the mage had a big "shoot fireballs here" sign on his head. After checking the logs the next morning and seeing how often I cast WoG on other folks, I immediately spec'ed into PotI.

This might be a utility issue as it actively decreases the healing recevied by the tank, though it increases the healing available tot he raid.


I read a pally healing article on WoW Insider to day that said PotI heals for the same amount regardless of the heal being done, and works with Beacon. The upshot of it is that it was beneficial to be casting single-point WoGs around because WoG scales linearly with Holy Power, so 2x 1-stack WoGs heal the same as 1x 2-stack WoG but you get two PotI procs instead of one. It's apparently healing increase of about 10% over stacking HP, although I am skeptical given the additional GCD required. Healing-per-mana I am sure it's nice, but heal-per-time must suffer.

As a tank, however, I selfishly use the vast majority of my WoGs on myself. PotI only works on heals cast on others, so it would not be a good talent for me.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby baff » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:54 am

Going through the posts here I don't think this was mentioned. We should keep in mind that SotR hits one target, and generates threat on that specific target. Using WoG will split your threat amongst everything active in the encounter. So WoG would be more helpful with AoE threat (smoothing it out) while in a scenario where you are tanking one target and there are many others in the fight (Halfus encounter comes to mind) SoTR will push more tps on your target. This is of course prior to taking into considerations other aspects of the fight which might make you want to heal yourself/someone else regardless.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Doxa » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:16 pm

Seriously, someone buy Theckhd a beer.

Stellar work there.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:31 pm

Wait, EG has a 15 second ICD now? I guess that one slipped by me somehow. Here I thought I was just getting unlucky after all those awesome 3-to-6-in-a-row WoGs in the beta. :)

-- Per Koatanga above, this ICD is probably the only (or at least best) reason to go for 3-HoPo heals instead of 1-HoPos if you have PotI, which I now do.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Led ++ » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:28 am

Pff tanking in WotlK was so much easier. Well, not the tanking but the speccing and glyphing surely were.

Now I'm constantly rethinking my gems, shall I go for more mastery or still use stamina gems. Shall I ditch my ShoR glyph since I don't sue it that much, or shall I ditch my SoT glyph and use SoI a lot more.

The whole gem +stamina and get Seal of Truth glyphed and hit capped things in WotlK sure were boring, but at least I didn't have to break my head on it. :)
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Malthrax » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:22 am

Led ++ wrote:Pff tanking in WotlK was so much easier. Well, not the tanking but the speccing and glyphing surely were.

Now I'm constantly rethinking my gems, shall I go for more mastery or still use stamina gems. Shall I ditch my ShoR glyph since I don't sue it that much, or shall I ditch my SoT glyph and use SoI a lot more.

The whole gem +stamina and get Seal of Truth glyphed and hit capped things in WotlK sure were boring, but at least I didn't have to break my head on it. :)


That's why we has a Theckhd!
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby wrathblood » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:52 am

99sitr,

As a minor thing, I just noticed that I wasn't actually the one who wrote the message you're replying to, it was actually PsiVen, I think.

Second, I was just browsing Theck's listing of weapon enchants, sorted by threat, and it occurs to me that with a 0.5 threat multiplier on healing, Mending might actually be a pretty decent threat enchant. I mean, short of Landslide and Avalanche, the rest top out in the low 60s for TPS anyway.

This is jumping the gun since we don't quite have the mechanics down, but... I live for this. Just ballparking it, if Mending heals 1k per proc (a little lower typically, but it will crit every once in a blue moon), and it procs perhaps 12% of the time, then we're looking at ~120 healing or 180 threat per successful swing. Call it 165 threat for misses, etc and say you swing every 2.4 seconds and you're looking at ~69 tps.

Obviously, this is "Meteor" style threat divided among all targets, which is a concern. Still, that's not half bad.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:25 pm

Mending was doing something like 3% of my total healing done, compared to Seal of Insight doing something like 40%. I decided I'd swap it out for Avalanche.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Doxa » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:41 pm

wrathblood wrote:Obviously, this is "Meteor" style threat divided among all targets, which is a concern. Still, that's not half bad.


Is healing threat really divided across all targets? I'm not sure this is really the case but I could be wrong.
Tanking Trash on Doxa with Consecration(Rank3) Since 2007, on Doxah with Thunderclap since 2009 and on Doxeh with Death and Decay since 2010

Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:47 pm

Doxa wrote:Is healing threat really divided across all targets? I'm not sure this is really the case but I could be wrong.


I don't believe it's changed. How else would healing threat be allocated?
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Doxa » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:11 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Doxa wrote:Is healing threat really divided across all targets? I'm not sure this is really the case but I could be wrong.


I don't believe it's changed. How else would healing threat be allocated?


Well, the way I read and understand "divided across all targets" is that if you heal the tank for 10k and you generate .5 threat per unit of healing and there are 10 targets your total threat per target would be 500.

(10k * .5) / 10 = 500

(it's the divided across all targets /10 part that I'm curious about).

I've always understood that if you healed for 10k and you generate .5 threat per unit of healing and there are 10 targets your threat per target would be 5000.

(10k * .5) = 5000

Like I said, I may be totally wrong here but that's part of why I was asking.
Tanking Trash on Doxa with Consecration(Rank3) Since 2007, on Doxah with Thunderclap since 2009 and on Doxeh with Death and Decay since 2010

Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Loras » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:30 pm

theckhd wrote:
99sitr wrote:I pulled the 2 points from Sacred Duty for this exact reason. Until I see a need for the increased threat I will not be taking SD.

You can take all of the prot survival talents and 2/2 Sacred Duty in a 31/10 prot build. The only places you can move those points to are other threat talents - SotP, Hallowed Ground, Reckoning, or Grand Crusader, depending on what your specific build is.


Sorry if this was mentioned earlier somewhere.
In this case scenario Reckoning would be a tiny bit survival orientated, compared to Sacred Duty, because Reckoning means double Seal of Insight heals quite often. It's tiny, really, but still counts.
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Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby angelflavor » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:47 am

Glad to hear I'm not the only one using SoL and WoG as my goto Holy Power spells.
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