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Hit Rating and Expertise

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Arees » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:53 am

amityafflict wrote:if I recall correctly it was somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 as effective as dodge, but was 4x more effective at smoothing out the damage.


No, I'm pretty sure hes right that it was 80% as effective as dodge at reducing damage below the softcap of 26. However, most bosses in ICC had parry haste disabled, which turned expertise pretty much into a pure threat stat. I'll see if I can't find that post...

*edit*

Found it.

For Icecrown Citadel, expertise is roughly 91% as effective as dodge rating for reducing incoming damage, assuming a boss swing speed of 1.4 seconds (after JotJ).


This was before it was discovered that only Sindragosa and Deathwhisper parry haste

For bosses outside of Icecrown, we would use an average swing speed of around 2.0, giving average values of 87% for paladins (53%-104% range), 57% for warriors (30%-69%), 56% for druids (28%-68%), 45% for 2H Death Knights (28%-52%), and 71% for DW Death Knights (36%-84%).


Also keep in mind this was with 3.X mechanics and not 4.0.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby exiledknight » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:36 am

Brutalus wrote:I just carry round 2 sets, one with hit cap and expertise soft cap (I can't get hardcap without wrecking my normal gear) and the other with all hit/expertise reforged into mastery or avoidance. On bosses like Atramedes or Argaloth (and to some degree Ascendent Council) where I have no concern of dying I just throw on the hit/expertise set to make the fight quicker and cheese WoL.

At the end of the day the amount of expertise and hit you have is up to you and what you're tanking. If you're tanking heroics, then hit and expertise are probably fine. If you're tanking heroic Halfus, you're going to want as much survivability as you can get your hands on. There's always a risk that a healer will die, disconnect, fail, oom, be busy, or whatever, so on most bosses I'd rather be on the safe side and carry round that 1% extra block chance, but I'm sure that as content gets farmed more and more I'll be seeing more and more tanking pieces being replaced with dps pieces.


This answers the question I had last night wondering how you blew my away by 1200 dps on atramedes, although when I looked I had figured as much.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Donpablo » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:43 am

Previously I felt the same as it seems most people do; that threat was adequate so there was no functional need for hit or expertise.

However, with 4.0.6, they fixed it such that when crusader strike misses, we don't get holy power. Honestly, in the past I was not even aware that my CS was missing.... but now it's painfully obvious when one misses, as I dont get a holy power for that cycle, and it gimps the snot out of my rotation, which in turn makes for fewer SoR or WoG, and more episodes of down time where all my skills are on cooldown, which makes me sad panda.

I'm reforging excess dodge and parry (above 8.9705% and 10.1896% respectively, as stolen from one of our threads on here) into hit now (expertise soft cap is easy to get with glyph), not quite hit capped, but getting closer and it's making the missing ->> absent holy power problem better.

Is anyone else heading in this direction? Have any of the more mathematically inclined tried modeling the new missing not generating holy power to see what is more optimal?

Donpablo

EDIT: I realize this is an old thread, and the other posts are pre-cata, and now see there is another thread extensively dealing with this. Nothing to see here!
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Rachmaninoff » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:07 pm

Donpablo wrote:Previously I felt the same as it seems most people do; that threat was adequate so there was no functional need for hit or expertise.

However, with 4.0.6, they fixed it such that when crusader strike misses, we don't get holy power. Honestly, in the past I was not even aware that my CS was missing.... but now it's painfully obvious when one misses, as I dont get a holy power for that cycle, and it gimps the snot out of my rotation, which in turn makes for fewer SoR or WoG, and more episodes of down time where all my skills are on cooldown, which makes me sad panda.

I'm reforging excess dodge and parry (above 8.9705% and 10.1896% respectively, as stolen from one of our threads on here) into hit now (expertise soft cap is easy to get with glyph), not quite hit capped, but getting closer and it's making the missing ->> absent holy power problem better.

Is anyone else heading in this direction? Have any of the more mathematically inclined tried modeling the new missing not generating holy power to see what is more optimal?

Donpablo

EDIT: I realize this is an old thread, and the other posts are pre-cata, and now see there is another thread extensively dealing with this. Nothing to see here!

this did mess with me a little bit, especially since in pug groups I depend on healing myself more. is there any recommended amount of hit? for some reason, from somewhere, it was advisable in wrath was to have 5%, I did have a couple of aggro issues the other night at the beginning when some people would pull off me... overall it was not a problem but missing and not getting holy power is a minor problem though... I forgot how much hit I have but I do know that it is >1%
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Meloree » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:17 pm

Rachmaninoff wrote:this did mess with me a little bit, especially since in pug groups I depend on healing myself more. is there any recommended amount of hit? for some reason, from somewhere, it was advisable in wrath was to have 5%, I did have a couple of aggro issues the other night at the beginning when some people would pull off me... overall it was not a problem but missing and not getting holy power is a minor problem though... I forgot how much hit I have but I do know that it is >1%


Personally, I recommend aiming at 0% hit and 0 expertise. That's pretty much the nirvana, but it's going to be tough to accomplish. More realistically, you're likely to end up with around 1-1.5% hit and 3-5 expertise (plus racials). It's more than enough (for raiding).

If you're in 10-mans and might have to interrupt, you'll weight hit more heavily - but if people are pulling threat off you, even with low hit/expertise, then you're probably doing something very very wrong.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Firann » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:44 pm

I am the direct opposite of everyone here it seems. I am both hit caped (8.41%) and EXP capped (35 with SoV but i mostly use SoI). I am at 54% block and 10% parry 10% dodge. I like knowing that all my attacks are hits. Our wipes atm have nothing to do with me, just dps or OT dieing all over the place while the healers say they are pretty happy with me :)
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby baleogthefierce » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:14 am

Meloree wrote:Personally, I recommend aiming at 0% hit and 0 expertise. That's pretty much the nirvana, but it's going to be tough to accomplish. More realistically, you're likely to end up with around 1-1.5% hit and 3-5 expertise (plus racials). It's more than enough (for raiding).


Listen to Meloree, he speaks the truth.

There are a couple of pieces (the expertise legs from Atramedes is the only one I can recall offhand) where one large magnitude stat can be reforged into mastery and improve CTC over an avoidance/mastery piece while still boosting your threat stats. Excluding those rare cases, picking up threat stats in any scenario other than for interrupts is unnecessary.

In my experience, more threat/DPS stats would never have turned a wipe into a kill for me during this expansion. However, just last night I can recall at least 3 times where we had a near-wipe that we pulled out thanks to how survivable a block tank can be with 102.4% CTC.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Rachmaninoff » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:38 am

Meloree wrote:
Rachmaninoff wrote:this did mess with me a little bit, especially since in pug groups I depend on healing myself more. is there any recommended amount of hit? for some reason, from somewhere, it was advisable in wrath was to have 5%, I did have a couple of aggro issues the other night at the beginning when some people would pull off me... overall it was not a problem but missing and not getting holy power is a minor problem though... I forgot how much hit I have but I do know that it is >1%


Personally, I recommend aiming at 0% hit and 0 expertise. That's pretty much the nirvana, but it's going to be tough to accomplish. More realistically, you're likely to end up with around 1-1.5% hit and 3-5 expertise (plus racials). It's more than enough (for raiding).

If you're in 10-mans and might have to interrupt, you'll weight hit more heavily - but if people are pulling threat off you, even with low hit/expertise, then you're probably doing something very very wrong.


well when you open with AS and SoR, both miss, its a pain in the ass for the dps to muzzle it until you have threat. yea I taunt it right back but its my responsibility to get threat so they don't have to worry about it. in the long run I'm fine, but initial pulls ain't always so smooth... I totally disagree saying you should get 0 hit 0 exp... should you reforge for it, definitely not.. I agree trying to get to block cap is more important. but to ignore hit and exp all together?

but I think the real argument is since the new patch, if you don't hit your target, you don't get holy power, if you miss alot it can mess your rotation up, and if your dependent on WoG for pug groups, that hurts too... so should we aim for a soft cap? 3%? 4%? 5%?
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby inthedrops » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:43 am

Rachmaninoff wrote:
Meloree wrote:
Rachmaninoff wrote:this did mess with me a little bit, especially since in pug groups I depend on healing myself more. is there any recommended amount of hit? for some reason, from somewhere, it was advisable in wrath was to have 5%, I did have a couple of aggro issues the other night at the beginning when some people would pull off me... overall it was not a problem but missing and not getting holy power is a minor problem though... I forgot how much hit I have but I do know that it is >1%


Personally, I recommend aiming at 0% hit and 0 expertise. That's pretty much the nirvana, but it's going to be tough to accomplish. More realistically, you're likely to end up with around 1-1.5% hit and 3-5 expertise (plus racials). It's more than enough (for raiding).

If you're in 10-mans and might have to interrupt, you'll weight hit more heavily - but if people are pulling threat off you, even with low hit/expertise, then you're probably doing something very very wrong.


well when you open with AS and SoR, both miss, its a pain in the ass for the dps to muzzle it until you have threat. yea I taunt it right back but its my responsibility to get threat so they don't have to worry about it. in the long run I'm fine, but initial pulls ain't always so smooth... I totally disagree saying you should get 0 hit 0 exp... should you reforge for it, definitely not.. I agree trying to get to block cap is more important. but to ignore hit and exp all together?

but I think the real argument is since the new patch, if you don't hit your target, you don't get holy power, if you miss alot it can mess your rotation up, and if your dependent on WoG for pug groups, that hurts too... so should we aim for a soft cap? 3%? 4%? 5%?


I don't think he meant to literally try to get 0 and 0. He was just making a point that they aren't important, even after the changes. Yes, they can be annoying, but like you said yourself as long as you're paying attention you can taunt back or call out that your threat is bad.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:53 am

Rachmaninoff wrote:well when you open with AS and SoR, both miss, its a pain in the ass for the dps to muzzle it until you have threat. yea I taunt it right back but its my responsibility to get threat so they don't have to worry about it.

No, it's not. The goal is to kill the boss. In well over 99% of cases, you do that best by focusing on survivability. Your job is to make the healer's jobs easier and live long enough for the DPSers to kill the boss. In any serious raiding guild, the DPS will recognize that you are helping get boss kills faster by gearing for survivability, and subsequently that they are helping get boss kills faster by recognizing when they need to give you some space for threat overhead in the first 10 seconds.

If your DPS aren't capable of that, or your GM for some reason demands you improve your initial threat, then sure, go ahead and gear for some hit or expertise. But that doesn't mean that it's good tanking theory or good advice for other tanks. It means you're in a guild full of idiots.

There is indeed a soft-cap on hit and expertise, and right now it's 0% and 0 expertise. Anything more than that is completely unnecessary for killing raid bosses, outside of special circumstances (i.e. if you're an assigned interrupter in a 10-man raid).
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:02 am

Also, to be honest, the first 10 seconds isn't even an issue. I've taken to using the DP/Inq/Exo pull, and I've found that between the enormous amount of frontloaded threat that provides and tricks/MD, I have a solid threat lead established without even having to use SotR.

Pull:
DP
Inq
Exo+AW with 0.2s remaining
Judgement (applies 2 stacks of Censure)
AS (applies another stack of Censure)
Crusader Strike+Melee (applies 4th and 5th stack of Censure)

Melee players aren't in range to touch the boss before that Crusader Strike, and casters generally start their casts when Judgement goes off. By the time anyone else has even gotten a chance to touch the boss, I've laid down 5 stacks of Censure, 20-30k holy damage, and a Crusader strike. Plus any threat transfer from Tricks/MD if you have them available.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Rachmaninoff » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:27 am

Perhaps I'm just stuck in my old ways of always fighting for aggro. And honestly I loved it. I agree 110% our main objective is to mitigate damage. I am not disagreeing with that. But it has always been our 2nd objective to maintain threat. With cata it appears that is no longer the case. I really haven't been playing much let alone raiding.

Now I have been the person to do interrupts since the 10 man's I've done, the only melee are tanks. And I also got a Soul Blade the other night, I didn't think it was BiS because of the hit and thought about selling it for 30-35k. I kept it because I don't know when I will be able to get a different weapon. Now I'm having second thoughts. Thanks guys :lol:
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Meloree » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:30 am

inthedrops wrote:I don't think he meant to literally try to get 0 and 0. He was just making a point that they aren't important, even after the changes. Yes, they can be annoying, but like you said yourself as long as you're paying attention you can taunt back or call out that your threat is bad.


I literally did. Right now 0/0 is the nirvana. It won't actually happen, due to Bile-o-Tron nut and tier hat or shoulders - and Atramedes or Nef neck until you get the Sinestra version. But 0/0 is the prize, because it means no wasted itemization.

@Theck: We count down our pulls, so that ranged spells (and the MDs, to be fair) land when my exorcism lands. Double-miss on Exo/AS has not yet caused a threat pull.

@Rachmaninoff: If you're interrupting, that's a very good reason to cap hit. If your raid is relying on you to interrupt critical mechanics, you should be hitcapped. This is far more common in 10s than 25s.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Rachmaninoff » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:40 am

theckhd wrote:Also, to be honest, the first 10 seconds isn't even an issue. I've taken to using the DP/Inq/Exo pull, and I've found that between the enormous amount of frontloaded threat that provides and tricks/MD, I have a solid threat lead established without even having to use SotR.

Pull:
DP
Inq
Exo+AW with 0.2s remaining
Judgement (applies 2 stacks of Censure)
AS (applies another stack of Censure)
Crusader Strike+Melee (applies 4th and 5th stack of Censure)

Melee players aren't in range to touch the boss before that Crusader Strike, and casters generally start their casts when Judgement goes off. By the time anyone else has even gotten a chance to touch the boss, I've laid down 5 stacks of Censure, 20-30k holy damage, and a Crusader strike. Plus any threat transfer from Tricks/MD if you have them available.

I'll defiantly give that a shot. I've been doing DP/AW/AS/SoR/Judge/CS to start, its really quick too.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:59 am

Meloree wrote:@Theck: We count down our pulls, so that ranged spells (and the MDs, to be fair) land when my exorcism lands. Double-miss on Exo/AS has not yet caused a threat pull.


We do too, but.... we're not very good at it? The other tank has a reputation for being impatient. As in,
Tank: "5, 4, (pulls boss), 321."
DPS: "Dammit, there goes our pre-pot."

And he's not always consistent; sometimes it's 3, sometimes it's 4, sometimes it's 1 or 0. When the DPS tries to adjust by casting at 3, they run the risk of pulling preemptively if it's a "1" pull. As a result, many of our DPS have just given up trying to micromanage that first second or two.

I do a better job of waiting with my countdowns, but since I'm only tanking on a 2+ tank fight, he's usually doing them there too. Either way, with the amount of frontloaded threat we're talking about from the DP/Inq pull and MD/Tricks, spells landing coincident with Exo should still be a non-issue. Melee is often the more likely culprit for pulling aggro, and they generally have to wait a few seconds just by virtue of getting into melee range anyway.
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