New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby sculder » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:57 am

Neokoros wrote:What is going to help you more in this situation: being able to block more/take less damage (b/c of Mastery) or take more damage but have more health (b/c of Stamina)? I would assume Mastery to be more helpful in this situation, and even more helpful in situations where the healer doesn't die but just runs OOM. Why? Take less damage, healers need to heal less, run out of mana further down the line vs. having a shit load of HP but take a shit load of damage and healers burn through mana much more quickly trying to keep you up.



If you're on a forum other than basic training I shouldn't have to tell you that you cannot block magic damage. Gearing strategies will vary on a boss-by-boss basis in heroic content, and I will likely have to change gems, spec, gear, glyphs, enchants, and rotation often to better fit current progression. This has been the case since vanilla, and speculations about specific stats being better for fights we have never seen before is not something that completely belongs in this forum. Me stating that I want (need) more stam is not an opinion, it's a fact. Not because we will be stam stacking, but because the obvious (or so I thought) point that you will be gaining a _ton_ of health through gear upgrades before pushing heroic content.

You can theorycraft about damage taken and its effects on the efficiency of healers' spell choices all day long, but it is not relevant until we can see parses from heroic bosses.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Meloree » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:38 am

econ21 wrote:It's that kind of disparaging comment that made me post here in reaction to Meloree. Forget the "server first", I suspect most tanks playing WoW are currently concerned about just completing Heroic Deadmines: my guild celebrated our first heroic clear two days ago. Of course, you focus your theorising on the content you run but others are interested in the content they are running.


I perhaps misspoke in a fit of pique. Heroics are not trivial to the degree that they were in WotLK - however, your chances of success in any given heroic are only very lightly dependant on tank gear. The limiting factor in heroics is typically good use of interrupts and CCing the correct mobs. This thread will be useful and relevant in two weeks.

That said, for this particular sub-forum, I think Theck's comment isn't so much disparaging as accurate. In the "Advanced Training" forum, the primary focus is cutting edge content.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby econ21 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:55 am

I got hammered in my first successful heroic two days ago and I agree it was nothing to do with gear (except that now, I am at the "right" entry gear level for the instance rather than massively outgearing it) and instead was all about learning boss tactics.

On reflection, maybe the best thing to do is move this topic to another forum? I agree the gear one is best (given the gemming bit in the title).

I do think it is an interesting topic. People are discussing it everywhere I look today (wow insider, mmo champion, tankspot, official forums) and the responses are completely all over the place. Many trot out the old "stamina to the roof" mantra without much support. Others counter with stories of healer's mana bars drying up. None I have read today say it depends on the content you are running. None say that it is a no-brainer to go mastery/avoidance in 5-mans. I think there are interesting things to be discussed here, even if it is just an acknowledgement of our ignorance.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby sculder » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:49 am

The problem with the official forums, wowhead, mmo-c, and basically everywhere that isn't maintankadin is that the bulk of the population are uneducated about current formulas and strategies. I almost want to post on some of these forums in the more ridiculous topics where the OPs are being misguided by a tankadin in greens, but often the sheer numbers of uneducated responses is overwhelming.

at&c is a place for advanced theories and new ideas, so this thread and the ideas in it are better suited for the gear discussion forum, or basic training. I think the massive increase in 'negative' comments here is because the focus of the thread is basically irrelevant to the majority of the contributors, because gearing for heroics is trivial. I (and most other tankadins I know) are way past the point of struggling in heroics, making threads like this one in at&c a little unsettling. When HC parses and info becomes available, this type of questioning will be a lot more relevant, but for now it's menial at best
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Jaitee » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:48 pm

stam does have some mitigation to it though due too 2 new mechanics
1 vengeance higher stam means a higher vengeance cap
2 word of glory scales with AP or SP depending on which is higher

so more stam means bigger word of glories but only if boss damage is enough to cap vengeance

i havnt been into an 85 raid yet (first one monday wish me luck!) so i dont know if we are getting vengeance capped in normals but id say in heroics we will (Atleast on the fights where high tank damage is part of its difficulty) cap it

my personal gemming strategy is aim for 150k health then go with mastery as my prime gem type

now for some of my bad math :P

wog scales with 71% of our ap (can someone double check/confirm that) a stam gem gives 6ap that increases wog by 4.26

179.28 mastery is needed for 1 mastery or 2.25% block
so 40 mastery gives 0.5% block chance
which would average out too 0.2% damage reduction over the course of a fight
so as long as a hit is more then 2,130 mastery reduces more damage then stam does through wog

rendering this entire post useless since what sort of boss hits for 2k these days!
oh well it was good to get the cobwebs out of the math part of my brain :D
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby gibborim » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:15 am

econ21 wrote:It's that kind of disparaging comment that made me post here in reaction to Meloree. Forget the "server first", I suspect most tanks playing WoW are currently concerned about just completing Heroic Deadmines: my guild celebrated our first heroic clear two days ago. Of course, you focus your theorising on the content you run but others are interested in the content they are running.



Well, for "most" tanks, it sounds like they need to spend some time in basic training if they need help handling the tanking end of Cata Heroics.

If any one member can tell you to take your post to a different forum than this one, it is Theckhd. He has, so take it to gearing or basic.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby pyrile » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:20 am

One thing that I have noticed that has changed from being lvl 80 to 84 is that my dodge rating has dissappeared,my stats before cata were 33 dodge/ 30 block/ 27 parry. I am now lvl 84 and my dodge has dropped to a meager 15% yet the items that I have replaced have had more dodge rating, I was playing around with two of my trinkets and I swithced out my porceclain crab that has a 200 dodge rating with an on use green agility trinket, If i remember correctly it was a green quest item from vashir the on use granted +750 agility, not to my surprise my dodge was above 17% from the boost in agility.. now I always socketed agility into my red sockets for LK, since my hp was never an issue, I prefrred to have my avoidance as high possible. mastery is great and all but I wont be stacking it till everything else is where it should be.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:35 am

gibborim wrote:If any one member can tell you to take your post to a different forum than this one, it is Theckhd. He has, so take it to gearing or basic.


Well, I wouldn't put it quite that way. But the point remains that there isn't a lot to discuss about heroic 5-mans. It doesn't matter how you gear for heroic 5-mans, because your success and failure pretty much hinges on two things:
  1. Did you use CC properly?
  2. Did you move out of the fire?
.
If you do both of those things, you can clear heroic instances smoothly even if you gemmed your gear for intellect.

Admittedly, not every player actually plays this game well. There are tanks who do stand in the fire, and for those tanks, stacking more stamina might save them in a few of the cases where they screw up. Similarly, DPS (or tanks) who break CC (intentionally or otherwise) and end up more mobs than they can handle will die slow, trickle-down deaths, and might wipe fewer times by choosing mastery (though again, this depends on the type of mob and damage, and so on).

But it would be very foolish to base a theory of "how to gem properly" on the idea that the player is playing badly. You have to assume that you're being diligent about not making stupid mistakes, because there's so many ways to play badly that you'll never find one gemming strategy that compensates best for each player's individual failings.

And it would be even more foolish to base a theory of gemming for raid encounters aimed at players who aren't making mistakes on such a model.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby knaughty » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:50 pm

I'm not as good as Meloree, but I'm not bad. If you know how to play, heroics start getting pretty damn trivial once you're in 346+ gear.

I ran heroic Lost City today with a guild group, I'm the best geared @ ilevel 350 (5 epics), the rest would be in mostly 346 blues, with an epic here or there. We were clearing to the prophet when the hunter's pet decided to do a critical pathing error lap of a pillar / garden bed on the way to a mob 10 yards in front of it, bring two packs back with him. So we had three packs, 10-12 mobs (all real ones, no merchants). No one died, though I certainly needed to blow all my CDs, and the healer actually used his mana (he was finishing single trash packs on 90-95%). We did have hunter/ret/boomkin as DPS, so there was a lot of CC available, and everyone in the group is pretty damn good, but even so, it should have been a wipe.

In full epics, it will be back to zerging shit like ICC. Given how weak AE is, however, I imagine I'll still use CC + single-target damage for quite a while.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby wrathblood » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:31 pm

Well, yes and no. Tol'vir is pretty easy as far as heroics go. Pulling a couple extra packs in Stonecore or HoO will probably get even a well-geared (by current standards) group roflstomped.

That having been said, I do agree that somewhere around ilevel 340 or 345 the heroics seemed to get a touch easier (a couple days ago I was running Tol'vir, in fact, and kept asking people "are you SURE this place didn't get nerfed?") as it feels we're getting stronger remarkably quickly as we gear up.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby inthedrops » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:30 am

Gear makes a huge difference. Today, if you really wanted to, you could pull some scary packs without CC, chain your cooldowns, and come out with all 5 alive. That wouldn't have been likely a couple weeks ago. I've gone from 34% block when I first started heroics to over 54% block and the difference between that and all the other gear upgrades from myself and others is night and day.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Amonet » Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:57 pm

inthedrops wrote:Gear makes a huge difference. Today, if you really wanted to, you could pull some scary packs without CC, chain your cooldowns, and come out with all 5 alive. That wouldn't have been likely a couple weeks ago. I've gone from 34% block when I first started heroics to over 54% block and the difference between that and all the other gear upgrades from myself and others is night and day.


If you are using cool downs yes. And ofc gear makes a difference, always has been, but some tacs just need to be executed or you'll die anyways. Try halls of org HC, first pack. No cc = a dead group. Even with like 350 average Ilvl tank and all CD's chained.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:46 pm

Amonet wrote:If you are using cool downs yes. And ofc gear makes a difference, always has been, but some tacs just need to be executed or you'll die anyways. Try halls of org HC, first pack. No cc = a dead group. Even with like 350 average Ilvl tank and all CD's chained.


I've done that pack in <346 blues without cc. It's not that hard if you burn down the bigger mob, and trivial if you have a mage to spellsteal his buff.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Bept » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:58 pm

theckhd wrote:Well, I wouldn't put it quite that way. But the point remains that there isn't a lot to discuss about heroic 5-mans. It doesn't matter how you gear for heroic 5-mans, because your success and failure pretty much hinges on two things:
  1. Did you use CC properly?
  2. Did you move out of the fire?
.
If you do both of those things, you can clear heroic instances smoothly even if you gemmed your gear for intellect.


This.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Cragwell » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:13 pm

This is a somewhat pointless discussion, but I will add to it anyway. Is that trollish or what?

My guild has downed three of the 10 man raid bosses so far. Well 2.5 if you don't want to count the Tol Barad boss which is ridiculously easy. We are currently working on the twilight dragons. Anyway, I think there are some things being missed here when you are discussing your healers running out of mana and thus Damage Avoidance > EH.

In the golem defense system our healers are full out healing two tanks on two seperate mobs (sometimes three mobs) for a full 8 minutes. They are using mana regeneration cooldowns effectively and efficient heals. They are not running out of mana. So when you are talking about a healer in heroic dungeons, keep in mind that they are learning the new healing methods and also keep in mind that there are many more mana regen options available to a group of 10+ than a group of 5.

Here are some things you are not considering when you are in this discussion.

1. Many abilities/trinkets/procs are based on your total stamina and/or health (edited for corrected content)

2. High stamina pools make for less "oh sh*t" moments and make those moments more manageable. Like for instance when our more avoidance oriented tank got face-planted by his golem and I had to quickly taunt and tank two of them for the last 10%.

3. When you have more than one healer (like non-5 man) you have much more incoming heals to draw on and overhealing is "wasted" mana.

4. When you are low on health and popping cooldowns, your lower health is going to be higher than the avoidance options.

5. Until you are block/avoidance capped you can still get 3-4 unblocked hits and your total health will be all that matters. Once we are capped (if possible) and we know the hardest hitters out there, we can start looking at this question. For now, stack your stamina if you plan on raiding.

6. Your raid leaders most likely don't care what your avoidance is. You look more attractive to them when your stamina pool is 180k+. Before you ask, yes, I am over 180k in raid buffs atm.

So, while this response strays pretty far from this premature theorycrafting, I did want to point out the above to those of you running the heroic 5 mans at this time.
Last edited by Cragwell on Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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