[4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

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[4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Fenneddar » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:55 pm

Seems like lots of my friends are having trouble working with the new priority rotation, so I threw together a flowchart to help visualize things easier until you can do it on the fly.

This chart is based on my own observations, as well as a few glances on Thecks info here. As of now, this prioritizes Grand Crusader procs, since glyphed Avengers Shield hits hard. It also fishes for Sacred Duty to power up Shield of the Righteous. This is very much a WIP based on available information and current gear and specs. It may change in the future, but it works pretty well right now for the few months until Cata lands. Feel free to open with whatever feels comfortable. On the pull, I felt that an Avengers Shield and specc'ed judge worked well for the few seconds a boss traveled until they were within 5 yards for CS.

Any thoughts before I send this out to my friends?


EDIT: Took a few suggestions into account for simplification.
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Last edited by Fenneddar on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:23 pm

A few things wrong with this and it seems to be vastly over-complicating what is a fairly straightforward system, but the one that stands out is that you're suggesting people hard cast exorcism? Casting spells with a cast time renders you unable to dodge, parry or block during that spell's cast time, and so is not something a tank should ever be doing except when not being actively attacked by a mob. Plus your weapon's not swinging during the cast time, making the threat gain rather meagre anyway.

You should probably re-read Theck's conclusions in the matlab thread as well.
Last edited by Rhiannon on Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Kihra » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:31 pm

You shouldn't be prioritizing Avenger's Shield above fishing for Sacred Duty or ShoR. Your flowchart would actually cause the following to happen:

CS - (now you have 3 HoPo) - AS - ShoR

The only reason to ever push back ShoR is if you're fishing for SD via a Judgement.

It's counter-intuitive, but at least right now, AS is basically lower in priority than everything but Cons and HW. You still get a bit of a boost from Grand Crusader by being able to use it in place of those abilities though.

Also, if you have Hallowed Ground and the boss will stay in the Consecrate for the whole duration, then Cons > HW.
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Fenneddar » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:45 pm

Rhiannon wrote:people hard cast exorcism?

Good thoughts. I had exo in basically as an end of the line, if everything was on CD and you wanted to push 'something' Hence why it was there with Please ;).
In a couple hours I've only ran into that situation a handful of times, but I thought I would include it for continuity. It probably isn't needed.

The only way it could possibly happen consistently, is if on your 3rd Holy Power increase, if Grand crusader proc'ed and you used AS before following through to Shield slam. This means you possibly could be cooldown locked out of something to do following the next CS.

And thanks Kihra, I realized I wasn't exactly clear, I will need to modify the first few steps as you don't want to push back shield of the righteous on your third HoPo stack. And good ideas about Hallowed Ground as well.
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:42 am

Yeah, you should take a look at my MATLAB thread. That flow chart is completely wrong.

The rotation is

CS-J-CS-(AS or HW)-CS-ShoR-

Anything else is a DPS loss. Alternating AS and HW in that middle slot is how most people will do it if they don't spec GC, speccing GC just means you can convert more of your HW casts into AS's.

Prioritizing GC procs over anything else is a DPS loss. Fishing for Sacred Duty procs is a break-even at best, and a DPS loss if you don't have the mana to use Consecration in the gaps it creates.
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Fenneddar » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:57 am

Yeah it looks like I may have to change up a few things. I seem to have been (unintentionally) taking advantage of a bug the past few days that let you use AS technically before the global was off. This was leading me to believe that AS was more beneficial first after the first CS since you wanted more opportunities for GC to proc to begin with.

I played around with swapping judgement first like you mentioned Theck, and I think it plays a little easier. After further tests with a 3/4 stack of vengeance, in 7.5 minute slices, the extra GCDs that you waste trying for a Sacred proc (going for instance CS-x-CS-x-CS-J-ShoR) really seemed to add up over time. That being said, it just made sense to have Judgment in the first or second x and always keep it constant. So from the first CS to the last ShoR, you really only want to include one Avengers Shield. If Grand Crusader procs and you include 2 for instance, you are loosing out on a chance to judge or pushing back ShoR if you choose to Judge before the ShoR. I guess it really doesn't matter what order you put judgement in, (CS-J-CS-AS/Cons-CS-ShoR) or the reverse, (CS-AS/Cons-CS-J-CS-ShoR) as long as it stays in that spot always for the duration of the fight.

Thanks for the enlightenment. I'm holding steady at around 23-25k tps. :) I'll have to modify my flow chart to remove the sacred duty proc fishing, and always include Judgement.
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Jaitee » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:54 pm

delaying SotR to try and get a SD proc is never going to be a dps gain

let me show you
c>j>c>as or hw>c>SotR
if judgment procs sacred duty itll be available 9ish seconds later when u cast SotR

there will always be a judgment between SotR's
if u delay 1 SotR to get another judgment off then you are taking away the judgment from one SoTR and giving it to the next when it would have already gotten a judgment before it

somone can probably explain it better then i can but basically dont delay your hardest hitting attack when its ready fire it off
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Bogomips » Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:44 pm

I'm having trouble figuring out why everyone is saying to use Crusader Strike, and I think I must really missing something important. On the heroic training dummy (on live) with Kings up, my Hammer of the Righteous hits for approximately 1800 holy damage, and around 200 physical. Crusader Strike is hitting for approximately 1700 physical. Due to this disparity, I don't even use Crusader Strike for single-target tanking. I haven't even glyphed for Hammer of the Righteous, but I probably will. With my now much lower crit, 5% extra chance doesn't really seem to beat the 10% bonus to both types of damage with HotR.

But am I missing something? There's got to be a reason why people are choosing a lower damage ability over one with higher damage (and AoE). Does Crusader Strike do inherently more threat?
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Jaitee » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:11 pm

Bogomips wrote:I'm having trouble figuring out why everyone is saying to use Crusader Strike, and I think I must really missing something important. On the heroic training dummy (on live) with Kings up, my Hammer of the Righteous hits for approximately 1800 holy damage, and around 200 physical. Crusader Strike is hitting for approximately 1700 physical. Due to this disparity, I don't even use Crusader Strike for single-target tanking. I haven't even glyphed for Hammer of the Righteous, but I probably will. With my now much lower crit, 5% extra chance doesn't really seem to beat the 10% bonus to both types of damage with HotR.

But am I missing something? There's got to be a reason why people are choosing a lower damage ability over one with higher damage (and AoE). Does Crusader Strike do inherently more threat?



it all depends on your spec glyphs gear etc

but from what ive heard hammer is doing more in heroics/training dummies but crusader strike scales better with AP so in a raid with a decent stack of vengence CS will do more
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:29 pm

Bogomips wrote:But am I missing something?

Yes. A whole lot of buffs.

-You're unlikely to have Sunder on the dummy, which will increase the damage of CS.
-Last I checked, dummies don't attack you back, so you won't have any Vengeance AP. Vengeance AP is a big deal, because it's going to be around 6k AP.
-Right now, T10 2-piece and Glyph of HotR are both bugged, and do not affect the Holy damage portion.
-As a result, CS scales a little better with AP, enough such that while fully buffed and tanking in a raid environment, CS does more damage. If the bugs are fixed, HotR will likely pull ahead.

Personally, I wish they'd just ignore CS for prot and make HotR our baseline ability. If they're going to do such similar amounts of damage on a single-target, then it's sort of pointless to have both. Just revert HotR to its old form and animation, make it hit every target in the radius that isn't CCed, and be done with it.

Pressing 2 instead of 3 every other GCD isn't a "meaningful rotation difference between single-target and aoe."
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Awyndel » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:46 pm

Personally I wish they would make CS the clear winner single target. Perhaps a way of doing that is by making the hotr damage on your primary target only slightly higher then the nova damage.
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Fenneddar » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:49 am

theckhd wrote:Yes. A whole lot of buffs.


Yes, one of the things I always thought that would have been cool was some sort of raid buff system for dummies. Especially for tanks, where values can vary wildly due to vengeance, it would be great if you could test out your full-on numbers without needing a small army behind you :>

For testing the effects of vengeance though I ended up using the giant that wanders in Zul'Drak with a friend healing me. Turn your back and keep sitting to pump it up do a 3/4 stack. At least helps you get a decent idea.
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Re: [4.0.1] Single Target TPS Rotation Flowchart

Postby Robbert » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:56 pm

Does Hammer of Wrath then take the spot of Avengers Shield/Holy Wrath in our rotation sub 20%, given it's currently a very hard hitting ability? If so, wouldn't this further reduce the benefit of taking Grand Crusader as AS basically drops out of our rotation sub 20%?
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