pallies = squishiest tank now?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Neara » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:39 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Haven't you lost a lot of avoidance from the lack of defense?


don't think so .. most defense rating on equip got changed into dodge rating + better DR on parry + parry from str .. might be worse than before but not by a lot. As far as i remember from my character sheet i'm only missing around 5% dodge from talent, parry is about the same without the talent.



I can't really tell about paladins, because i had to heal on sunday, but our warrior MT was fine 9/12 hardmode and even the alt-warrior OT was healable. Only on marrowgar we had a little problem with healers on bonespikes resulting in our 3 tanks dying in about 2-3 seconds. But our 2 cats going bear and taking over still made it a kill :D

DPS is a bit insane currently .. never had a raid with so many screw-ups and still killing everything through brute-forcing the last 20-30%
Neara
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:16 pm

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby steadypal » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:29 pm

anyone think the sanctuary bug made us take 3% dr, instead of 10%?
steadypal
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Flex » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:29 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Haven't you lost a lot of avoidance from the lack of defense? That will make you squishier pretty quickly. Also, when looking at the mitigation percentages, keep in mind that Armor mitigation works a bit differently than other types of mitigation. Armor mitigation is taken off the base hit, whereas other mitigation effects are taken off the armor reduced hit.


Who are you and what have you done to Fridmarr?

Multiplicative reduction doesn't matter in the order of application. The flat value of block is the only one where order matters.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7500
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby superworm » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:09 pm

I think the idea here is not whether tankadins are squishy, but whether they are the squishiest of all, i.e. the comparison between pallies and other tanks. I haven't played tankadins for a while so I can't really say much here. However according to my inspection, the 4 tank classes are rather badly balanced now. Bears are really strong. Their critical strikes shield them for 97%AP which increases by another 4% per mastery point. With vengence, AP of tanks are really high. Let's say a bear with 15000AP and 15 mastery points, constantly shield himself with 157%*15000=23550 damage, which is higher than pallies' 30% block, even on H LK, not to mention bears have higher health, higher armor and higher base reduction now.

And bosses are hitting harder now, mabye due to change of AP reduction debuff or as someone mentioned, a new formula for level 83+ mobs. But the truth is pallies are suffering from survivability now. I'm somewhat confused that so many people here keeps saying that it's healer reason while at the same time bears seem to be doing fine with the same healers. From the PoV of a tank, maybe it's natural to argue that one can still do his job, as long as blahblahblah; but from the PoV of a RL, I will always appoint the best fit tank, who is most surviable with enough threat to hold aggro.

I'm also thinking that why pallies don't take the Word of Glory related talents. Threats are generally not an issue, and it's natural to choose the surviability talents first. Maybe your healers do have problems, but the world has to keep going, and the tank just have to make up for the healers.
User avatar
superworm
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:56 pm

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Kihra » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:33 pm

superworm wrote:Bears are really strong. Their critical strikes shield them for 97%AP which increases by another 4% per mastery point. With vengence, AP of tanks are really high. Let's say a bear with 15000AP and 15 mastery points, constantly shield himself with 157%*15000=23550 damage, which is higher than pallies' 30% block, even on H LK, not to mention bears have higher health, higher armor and higher base reduction now.


Bears are really strong, but your numbers for Savage Defense are a bit high. It's multiplying the amount absorbed, not adding to the percentage of AP. It's actually 65% * 1.32 = 85.8% of your AP. Our bear (who isn't fully maxed out) tops out at about 14k absorbs on LK, and my block is often 16-18k. For a full 277 geared druid, they'd be pretty comparable.
Kihra
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 pm

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby superworm » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:42 pm

Kihra wrote:
superworm wrote:Bears are really strong. Their critical strikes shield them for 97%AP which increases by another 4% per mastery point. With vengence, AP of tanks are really high. Let's say a bear with 15000AP and 15 mastery points, constantly shield himself with 157%*15000=23550 damage, which is higher than pallies' 30% block, even on H LK, not to mention bears have higher health, higher armor and higher base reduction now.


Bears are really strong, but your numbers for Savage Defense are a bit high. It's multiplying the amount absorbed, not adding to the percentage of AP. It's actually 65% * 1.32 = 85.8% of your AP. Our bear (who isn't fully maxed out) tops out at about 14k absorbs on LK, and my block is often 16-18k. For a full 277 geared druid, they'd be pretty comparable.


Thanks for your correction. There are still quite a lot known part in the new mechanism. I guess we will get a better understanding of the current situation after more test and logs.
User avatar
superworm
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:56 pm

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:03 pm

Flex wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Haven't you lost a lot of avoidance from the lack of defense? That will make you squishier pretty quickly. Also, when looking at the mitigation percentages, keep in mind that Armor mitigation works a bit differently than other types of mitigation. Armor mitigation is taken off the base hit, whereas other mitigation effects are taken off the armor reduced hit.


Who are you and what have you done to Fridmarr?

Multiplicative reduction doesn't matter in the order of application. The flat value of block is the only one where order matters.

Right but their wording suggested that they were adding up a string of multiplicative reductions and comparing their sum. In other words
50% Armor Reduction
+ 50% Talents Reduction

Is not the same as

30% Armor Reduction
+ 40% Talents Reduction
+ 30 Block Reduction

Despite them adding up to the same number.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:15 pm

steadypal wrote:anyone think the sanctuary bug made us take 3% dr, instead of 10%?

It's possible, GC's comment is kind of hard to translate, but if you weren't getting the full crit reduction (daze immunity) then it's certainly possible you were only getting the rank 1 mitigation instead of rank 3.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Awyndel » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:46 pm

Does this mean we have been getting crits? That would explain some of the freak accidents I have suffered last week :( .
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby steadypal » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:54 pm

Awyndel wrote:Does this mean we have been getting crits? That would explain some of the freak accidents I have suffered last week :( .



well if we're block capped i dont think we can be crit,, but some of us might be only getting 3% dr from sanctuary instead of 10%


i know on heroic sindra tonight me and my other pally tank in our guild i was taking roughly 8k more melee dmg per hit than he was in p2
steadypal
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Jackinthegreen » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:08 am

superworm wrote:I'm also thinking that why pallies don't take the Word of Glory related talents. Threats are generally not an issue, and it's natural to choose the surviability talents first. Maybe your healers do have problems, but the world has to keep going, and the tank just have to make up for the healers.


Wrathblood on the EJ forums (http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t106477-4_0_1_tanking_protection_field_manual_fordrings_groupies/p3/) has a post about using WoG. Something to note is rough math on Seal of Insight shows it does comparable threat as Seal of Truth even when Vengeance gets up since both scale from AP. Wrath is also underestimating the proc rate on SoI. WoG apparently isn't scaling from Vengeance though, which it should according to one of GC's posts saying it'd be based on SP or AP, whichever is higher.
Jackinthegreen
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:22 pm

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Yelena » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:13 am

Jackinthegreen wrote:WoG apparently isn't scaling from Vengeance though, which it should according to one of GC's posts saying it'd be based on SP or AP, whichever is higher.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27026399 ... ed-can-it/

Ghostcrawler wrote:We also need to make sure that the AP coefficient for the heal isn't affected by Vengeance.
Valleri - Frostwolf
Yelena
 
Posts: 355
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:54 am
Location: Behind the Eight Ball

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Dravan » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:05 am

I'm running with around 30k+ armour and am block capped since the patch.

I have definately noticed that I am taking more damage since the patch but then I have also gained a lot of health. Still we have managed to killed everything ICC heroic this week that we have previously without many issues (only problem on Festergut was 3 growths but hey you use CD's whats new there?)

Our warrior tank hates me because he is much squishier than me at the moment, though that could be personal gearing and play not character mechanics.

I would say the biggest issue we have noticed is with the healing, mainly that our holy paladin is not kicking out the same healing as he used to and priests tend to go oom fast. However we have countered this by taking a couple of extra healers a raid. With warlocks kicking out 18k dps in 264 gear you really are making it harder for yourselves by going with 5 healers.

My only complaint right now is my initial threat sucks, then after 1 minutes I have 5 times more than anyone else. Oh and also that the gryphons are still stupidly slow and horde sit at GY ganking people who get ressed there.

GG blizz.
Dravan
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:29 am

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Kihra » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:49 am

Jackinthegreen wrote:
superworm wrote:I'm also thinking that why pallies don't take the Word of Glory related talents. Threats are generally not an issue, and it's natural to choose the surviability talents first. Maybe your healers do have problems, but the world has to keep going, and the tank just have to make up for the healers.


Wrathblood on the EJ forums (http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t106477-4_0_1_tanking_protection_field_manual_fordrings_groupies/p3/) has a post about using WoG. Something to note is rough math on Seal of Insight shows it does comparable threat as Seal of Truth even when Vengeance gets up since both scale from AP. Wrath is also underestimating the proc rate on SoI. WoG apparently isn't scaling from Vengeance though, which it should according to one of GC's posts saying it'd be based on SP or AP, whichever is higher.


I'm a huge fan of Word of Glory. I am the "cutters" tank on Halion, and it's amazing during that period. Before every cutter phase, I get up to three Holy Power and just hold it. As I rotate, I just wait for the inevitable health spike because of low healer throughput, and then I hit it. It often will fully compensate for a breath.

I find the Halion cutters tanking really interesting because I expect it's a sign of what Cata tanking may be like. In other words there will be periods where you just aren't topped off, and you will have a chance to really make use of WoG in those situations. If the raids manage to make healer throughput on the tank suffer, then WoG will become meaningful.
Last edited by Kihra on Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kihra
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 pm

Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Awyndel » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:53 pm

Tanked some more icc hc tonight. I don't know if the sanctuary fix did it or the healers where just on the ball, but I had no more freak accidental deaths, at all. I did not feel squishy at all tbh, just needed to use some more cd's ( and selfhealing ) then before.

I also tried the WoG spec on Sindy heroic. And I most say, I am in love with it. A 13K heal after a breath is damned nice, and it it procs a 2nd or 3rd heal it's extra nice. I reforged 8% hit and 22 expertise to compensate and threat was not a problem in the slightest.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 1 guest