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[4.0.1] TPS Concern

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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby heuvarius » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:03 am

Meloree wrote:
Gaffer wrote:Vengeance is probably the worst thing that has happened to tanking...ever.

I paid more attention to my Vengeance stack the second night I had a chance to tank and the numbers are ALL over the place. It takes anywhere between 10 seconds and 3 minutes for me to acquire a full stack of Vengeance. Randomly throughout the fight I'll find myself at 20% of max Vengeance. This randomness is pretty extreme when dealing with DPS in a raid environment. Trying to get them to slow because my tps is 60-70% of what it also could be at that point has been incredibly frustrating.


I'm trying to figure out how to articulate just how much I agree with this sentiment without using phrases like "/signed" or "this".


Outside of gimmicks, there is no reason at all that YOUR threat should depending on the mob you are fighting. DPS classes don't do less damage if they target have lower hp, healers don't heal for less if their group is getting hit for less. Why should tanks general LESS threat if they aren't getting hit for enough damage?
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Engel » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:40 am

heuvarius wrote:Outside of gimmicks, there is no reason at all that YOUR threat should depending on the mob you are fighting. DPS classes don't do less damage if they target have lower hp, healers don't heal for less if their group is getting hit for less. Why should tanks general LESS threat if they aren't getting hit for enough damage?


Although I agree with the sentiment that vengeance affects threat too much currently, there are healing mechanics that play on the HP of the target. Some classes now have stronger heals when healing targets with low health, and even in WotLK the example that springs to mind is the Earthliving HoT from Resto Shamans. Through talents the proc rate was 20% normally but 100% if the target was below a certain percent.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Iselian » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:23 pm

Meloree wrote:I'm trying to figure out how to articulate just how much I agree with this sentiment without using phrases like "/signed" or "this".


Let's emphasize some points!

Gaffer wrote:Vengeance is probably the worst thing that has happened to tanking...ever.

I paid more attention to my Vengeance stack the second night I had a chance to tank and the numbers are ALL over the place. It takes anywhere between 10 seconds and 3 minutes for me to acquire a full stack of Vengeance. Randomly throughout the fight I'll find myself at 20% of max Vengeance. This randomness is pretty extreme when dealing with DPS in a raid environment. Trying to get them to slow because my tps is 60-70% of what it also could be at that point has been incredibly frustrating.


Something akin to that. Oh. Wait.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Blarry » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:35 pm

heuvarius wrote:Outside of gimmicks, there is no reason at all that YOUR threat should depending on the mob you are fighting. DPS classes don't do less damage if they target have lower hp, healers don't heal for less if their group is getting hit for less. Why should tanks general LESS threat if they aren't getting hit for enough damage?


I do agree with you, but still we have to deal with Vengeance as it is, at least for the moment.

Well it highly depends on whether or not you are actually tanking, whether or not there are void zones or cleaves to catch some damage, whether or not tank swaps are necessary, whether or not there's a time where the boss doesn't attack at all. Even outgearing stuff now finally has an effect on threat generation.

Still, nothing has to be left un-work-around'ed:
- Is there any opportunity to get avoidable damage while not tanking? If so, get that damage.
- Do you have to swap tanks? Tell your fellow mate to immediately and completely stop tps-ing after you taunted, letting you build up Vengeance.
- Any events like Putricide mixing potions? Use your remaining stack of Vengeance and maximise your time attacking. Threat is less a problem later on in any given encounter, but if it becomes critical, ask for TotTs and MDs. Pop Avenging Wrath wisely.

Outgearing is a serious problem in 5mans now, but who cares about them. Nevertheless, even most Ulduar bosses have a surprisingly low impact on your Vengeance gained. Tanking Hodir w/o switching to some pieces of dps gear was, em, challenging.
n.b.: Swapping for dps items looks counter-intuitive in regard of health pool and maximum possible Vengeance stacking. Luckily dps plates' stamina is now similar to tanking plate.

Oh, the whole concept of getting as much damage as possible to avoid threat concerns is highly counter-intuitive. Hell, aren't we supposed to work harder for survival?
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Dantriges » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:11 pm

Well the tank equp of a fellow warrior in my guild for heroics in BC included a marriage gown, to get more rage, so well it´s not without precedent.

And I think there was a common saying, a tank doesn´t need pants in a heroic.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Macra » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:48 pm

I remember many times in TBC when I had to remove my shield to attempt to gain mana. It worked most of the time but there was always that chance of something bad happening.. I'm guessing that vengeance takes effect after the block huh? -30% vengeance building?
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby sculder » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:08 am

Dantriges wrote:Well the tank equp of a fellow warrior in my guild for heroics in BC included a marriage gown, to get more rage, so well it´s not without precedent.

And I think there was a common saying, a tank doesn´t need pants in a heroic.


I usually tank heroics as ret, in ret gear, with a group of 5 dps. Usually the mobs die so fast they barely have a chance to hit me.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Mordral » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:16 am

I had a longer post but got logged out and lost it.

Basically either:
Pull every instance like a timed ZA run

-or-

macro:
#showtooltip
/cast Hammer of the Righteous
/sit

That macro will ramp you fairly well at the start or if you end up losing your wood while Ingvar gets a second chance to carve your skull.

On patch day even with Theck's MATLAB work and the 'perfect' rotation, those were my only hope of keeping aggro on anything. Even then I had to reforge all my gear for Crit instead of mastery and throw on a nicely re-itemized Deathbringer's will.

Since the hotfix I have returned my gear back to original and have zero threat issues. Averaging 6K DPS as a tank in a heroic while using an out of date weapon is absurd. What? Thunderfury beats JotJ any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Play smart and DO NOT /sit in front of mobs that will gladly reach into your rectum, grab your tongue and pull you inside out... unless you pop AD first ;)


ETA: I guess after years of lurking this is my first post. Good luck and thanks for all your help along the way.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Gaffer » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:59 pm

heuvarius wrote:Outside of gimmicks, there is no reason at all that YOUR threat should depending on the mob you are fighting.


The bigger problem is that it isn't even depending on the mob. Strings of avoidance and absorbs can easily have you taking 3-5 minutes to get that Vengeance stack up only to have it drop to half 15 seconds later on a boss that you have also gotten to 100% Vengeance in less than 20 seconds. The randomness is just way too extreme for a mechanic so core as threat generation.

It has been much easier identifying when I need to let DPS know to ease off now that I'm running Vengeance Status. I'd definitely recommend checking it out if you're looking for a quick way to tell how your threat generation will be at any given point.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Olen » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:03 pm

1) I think Vengeance was a poor solution to whatever problem Blizz thought existed.
2) I like Vengeance Status mod as well.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:31 pm

@ synthesis your totally the second best prot pali on chogall next to me. Just sayin' :D
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby fetznschaedl » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:22 am

The biggest thing I noticed is when i told our priests (we have 3) to not bubble me right away, my initial threat was much better due to that first stack of vengeance.

Strings of avoidance and absorbs can easily have you taking 3-5 minutes to get that Vengeance stack up only to have it drop to half 15 seconds later on a boss that you have also gotten to 100% Vengeance in less than 20 seconds. The randomness is just way too extreme for a mechanic so core as threat generation.


Anyone else think Vengeance scales inversely not only with our (avoidance on) gear but also with certain healers' (shields)? Even block on gear is bad for aggro since it reduces the damage you take, thus reducing your ap bonus. In practice, it's not as bad of course since vengeance uptime is what matters in the long run, but for initial aggro, we really might do better without a shield and no bubble. Hello HP stacking for aggro...
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Protigy » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:58 am

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:@ synthesis your totally the second best prot pali on chogall next to me. Just sayin' :D

Depends on:

1) Who you are,
2) how cute you really are,
3) and the real reason why you're stalking me. :)
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby tinypally » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:09 am

haha, now I know what you was asking about. You have a stalker, if a bit delusional. Must be an alliance player on cho'gal.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Neptuno » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:15 pm

i've even tried doing SoI on the pull with just a single tricks/md... only issue was other people than me pulling for me. If you have TPS issues beyond the opening seconds, stock up on Vanishing powder and switch out for the fight specifically where you think you need the best glyph for it.
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