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Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:10 pm

Mastery doesn't really have a place in EH. Either you can cap it, at which point extra mastery is useless but you can include block reduction in your EH, or you can't, in which case it's not reliable and isn't included in EH.

What you'd want to look at is a statistical TTL comparison. If you have H health, and the boss is dealing D damage per second after avoidance and mitigation, then your time to live is H/D.

Stamina increases H to H+dH, giving you an extra TTL of dH/D.

Mastery reduces damage taken per second, but it's tricker to calculate. Damage taken per second should be:

D = (1-A-B)*Draw*M + B*Draw*M*0.6

where A is your avoidance, B is your block %, and M is your mitigation factor due to armor. This is a simplified version that only considers armor-mitigated physical damage; if you want to start including magical or bleed sources, then you need a more complicated expression like what's found in the Total EH thread.

Increasing block by an amount dB gives you

D-dD = (1-A-(B+dB))*Draw*M + (B+dB)*Draw*M*0.6

or

dD= dB*Draw*M*0.4

And your TTL goes up to H/(D-dD), for an extra TTL of (H*dD)/[D*(D-dD)].

If you set those two equal and do some simplifying, you get:

dH=f*dS=(H*0.4*dB)/[1-A-0.4*(B+dB)]

Where f is the HP you gain from a single point of stamina on gear.

You can solve that for dB as well:

dB=(1-A-0.4*B)*f*dS/[0.4*(H+f*dS)]

plug in 1 for dS, along with reasonable values for H, A, and B. I think that f should be 17.75 now (1.15*1.05*1.05*1.4 for talents, plate spec, BoK, and the built-in 1.4 sta->HP conversion), but if the 1.4 multiplier didn't go through we're still at f=12.679. That should give you the amount of block dB you need to gain to get equivalent TTL as one point of stamina, and you can multiply that by the appropriate factors to convert that to mastery.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby vexryn » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:29 pm

theckhd wrote:
dB=(1-A-0.4*B)*dS/[0.4*(H+f*dS)]

plug in 1 for dS, along with reasonable values for H, A, and B. I think that f should be 17.75 now (1.15*1.05*1.05*1.4 for talents, plate spec, BoK, and the built-in 1.4 sta->HP conversion), but if the 1.4 multiplier didn't go through we're still at f=12.679. That should give you the amount of block dB you need to gain to get equivalent TTL as one point of stamina, and you can multiply that by the appropriate factors to convert that to mastery.



I'm thinking of this in the context of gem choices like "Should my yellow socket have a Puissant Dream Emerald or a Solid Ocean Sapphire" - before applying whatever the socket bonus is. The itemization tradeoff is essentially 20 Mastery Rating for 30 Stamina.

Given that 20 Mastery Rating converts to 20 / 179.28 = .111557 x 2.25% = 0.251% block (ignoring the whole number thresholds of Mastery).

So if I assume something like 15% avoidance and 30% block from current stats along with 100,000 health (plucked from the air; I'm guesstimating that's a reasonable estimate for starter level 85 gear?), then...
dB = (1 - .15 - .4 * .3) / [0.4 * 100000 + 12.679] = 0.0018244% (assuming 100% uptime for Holy Shield)

So if I'm looking at something like swapping 30 stamina for 20 Mastery, then 30 x 0.0018244% = 0.055%

Given that, per above, my 20 Mastery Rating (in exchange for 30 Stamina) actually gives me 0.251% block, almost 5 times the above dB value, doesn't this mean (if I haven't completely butchered the formulas) that Mastery Rating is overwhelmingly more valuable than Stamina for TTL at this conversion rate (and even better if I assign a socket bonus value)?

In fact, the result seems so overwhelmingly in favor of the value of Mastery over Stamina, I'm going to assume I did something wrong here... :/
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:52 pm

Well, looking back at it, I made a typo. It should be (1-A-0.4*B)*f*dS/[0.4*(H+f*dS)], which buys you another factor of f. That brings it up to 0.0231% block per stamina using your numbers. Thus, the 30 stamina would be worth about 0.6941% block, better than the 20 mastery rating.

Note that this is really dependent on those input values being right though. If you increase A to 0.3 and H to 150k, the 30 stamina is only around 0.3677% block, which is getting closer to the same ballpark.

Of course, if that 1.4x buff to HP goes through (whatever happened to that on beta, btw?), Stamina will be nearly unassailable in terms of TTL.

And again, all of this is only relevant if TTL is a relevant metric. For reducing damage taken (and thus saving healer mana), mastery wins hands-down.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby vexryn » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:23 pm

theckhd wrote:
Of course, if that 1.4x buff to HP goes through (whatever happened to that on beta, btw?), Stamina will be nearly unassailable in terms of TTL.


Indeed, especially since this purely physical formulation of EH doesn't account for fights where Stamina is relevant for soaking magic damage and/or bleeds.


theckhd wrote:And again, all of this is only relevant if TTL is a relevant metric. For reducing damage taken (and thus saving healer mana), mastery wins hands-down.


And this will be the tradeoff that, to me, means frankly the TTL vs managing total damage kinds of metrics will be much more subjective. I suspect we'll see a lot of debate especially about how much EH (of various forms) to be stacking, versus dealing with the fact that having a giant pile of stamina with little avoidance or block mitigation makes you an OOM-causing mana sponge.

I'll give Blizzard credit that it at least makes it an "interesting decision" about how to balance gear. :)
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby Digren » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:41 pm

theckhd wrote:And again, all of this is only relevant if TTL is a relevant metric. For reducing damage taken (and thus saving healer mana), mastery wins hands-down.

This is what's tempering my advice at the moment. I haven't seen anything (yet) that indicates whether the best way to gear is:
  1. Minimizing total damage taken,
  2. Maximizing effective health, or
  3. Balancing damage reduction and effective health
or even if all three of the above are equally helpful.

Of those four options (A, B, C, or all of the above), only one (B) would lead to stamina stacking (ignoring socket bonuses) as the best choice. Likewise, (A) would lead to [Fractured Amberjewel] as the best option for yellow slots, with perhaps [Puissant Dream Emerald] in blue slots! :shock:

For now I think tempered, reasonable advice is (C). This suggests sta in blue slots, and mastery/sta in yellow slots, picking up socket bonuses to maximize stats. Of course this is subject to change when we see the first reports from raid content.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby vexryn » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:48 pm

Digren wrote:
theckhd wrote:And again, all of this is only relevant if TTL is a relevant metric. For reducing damage taken (and thus saving healer mana), mastery wins hands-down.

This is what's tempering my advice at the moment. I haven't seen anything (yet) that indicates whether the best way to gear is:
  1. Minimizing total damage taken,
  2. Maximizing effective health, or
  3. Balancing damage reduction and effective health
or even if all three of the above are equally helpful.

Of those four options (A, B, C, or all of the above), only one (B) would lead to stamina stacking (ignoring socket bonuses) as the best choice. Likewise, (A) would lead to [Fractured Amberjewel] as the best option for yellow slots, with perhaps [Puissant Dream Emerald] in blue slots! :shock:

For now I think tempered, reasonable advice is (C). This suggests sta in blue slots, and mastery/sta in yellow slots, picking up socket bonuses to maximize stats. Of course this is subject to change when we see the first reports from raid content.



Digren,
Indeed, given that it still seems "the jury is out" on this a bit, I haven't been pushing it in any guide discussion I've written, but my plan for the time being is Stamina in blue slots, Mastery/Stamina in yellow slots, and probably Parry/Stamina (Defender's) in red slots, as a balance of still building some stamina, but balancing with avoidance and mitigation as well.

I'm finding that as long as something "optimal" is anything remotely close to "balanced", having a sheer amount of "item points" seems to be more valuable than stacking any particular stat, as long as the gear I have doesn't have a clear dearth of a stat.

Consequently, I see very, very little reason to pass on virtually any socket bonuses if they're at all relevant to survival. As of now, I plan for now to match virtually every socket bonus, as long as it provides Stamina, Parry, Dodge, or Mastery. And the fact that reforging makes gear so versatile as well means that in addition to matching socket bonuses to maximize itemization points, I also expect that "item level" (and therefore, the item budget of available points) will be the single greatest determinant of whether a piece of gear is an upgrade. If it doesn't quite have the stats you like, just reforge that piece, or reforge other pieces to compensate for that piece.

Certainly, there may be occasional exceptions, but that seems to be the general rule I'm anticipating from what I've seen thus far. Once some raid bosses punch me in the face a few times, I'll figure out if I need to re-evaluate. :)
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby lukedawg » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:28 pm

i have read this thread 1000 times now and have tried every suggestion in there. no matter what i do i cant seem to get anywhere near the cap. i have 4p t10 atm ilvl 251 stuff with some craftable stuff thrown in there. i have reforged everything into mastery but it drops me down to about 20% dodge 19% parry 36% block thats with kings up no HS.
i ran the macro and it says 77.09 is what i am currently sitting at. my question is. does anyone have any quick suggestions on how to keep me from getting smashed into the ground. i consider myself a good tank but healers are complaining i am very hard to keep alive. i can run 10 icc pretty decent. the moment i try to tank 25 icc i just get smashed. tried tanking RS and got 1 one by the mini boss on the left.
clearly i have an avoidance problem somewhere but no matter what i reforge or how i reforge it doesnt seem to help. my character name is mikehancho on frastmane. you will have to look him up through the guild because of special charaters. guild name is shakenbake.
any tiny bits of advice would be greatly appreciated. i know i need some better gear but i thought what i currently had would be good enough for icc. i have all the gear JP can buy right now. i have the tier chest piece and vendor chest piece. i have the tier legs and craftable legs. have tried litterally every combo reforged everything into different things and still no luck. i takes 2 healers to keep me up in icc 25.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby Sathoris » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:19 am

The OP mentioned that reaching the block cap after the 4.0.3a is not possible unless you're decked with 277 gear (At level 80).
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby Malthrax » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:08 am

lukedawg wrote:i have read this thread 1000 times now and have tried every suggestion in there. no matter what i do i cant seem to get anywhere near the cap. i have 4p t10 atm ilvl 251 stuff with some craftable stuff thrown in there. i have reforged everything into mastery but it drops me down to about 20% dodge 19% parry 36% block thats with kings up no HS.
i ran the macro and it says 77.09 is what i am currently sitting at. my question is. does anyone have any quick suggestions on how to keep me from getting smashed into the ground. i consider myself a good tank but healers are complaining i am very hard to keep alive. i can run 10 icc pretty decent. the moment i try to tank 25 icc i just get smashed. tried tanking RS and got 1 one by the mini boss on the left.
clearly i have an avoidance problem somewhere but no matter what i reforge or how i reforge it doesnt seem to help. my character name is mikehancho on frastmane. you will have to look him up through the guild because of special charaters. guild name is shakenbake.
any tiny bits of advice would be greatly appreciated. i know i need some better gear but i thought what i currently had would be good enough for icc. i have all the gear JP can buy right now. i have the tier chest piece and vendor chest piece. i have the tier legs and craftable legs. have tried litterally every combo reforged everything into different things and still no luck. i takes 2 healers to keep me up in icc 25.


Your gear is WAY better than mine was when I started tanking ICC-25 eleven months ago.

If you're getting "1-shot" or you're "hard to keep alive", I'd suggest the issue is one of two possibilities:
a) execution problem
b) your healers are slacking

What boss(es) in ICC-25 have you attempted, and what specific tactic(s) did you use? I'm guessing this is a case of "you're doin' it wrong".
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby sculder » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:46 am

Sathoris wrote:The OP mentioned that reaching the block cap after the 4.0.3a is not possible unless you're decked with 277 gear (At level 80).


I've edited the OP some more to clarify some of the points I passively implied with my 4.0.3a update. It is indeed very difficult (impossible, for all intents and purposes) to hit block cap unless your gear is exceptional, and in most cases it still means sacrificing a lot of other good stats (expertise, hit) to reach it.

Come cata I will try to keep the OP as up-to-date and clear as possible :)
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby theckhd » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:37 am

You might want to update the derivation portion as well, to reflect the new cap values. I rewrote the entire thing here for Digren.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby sculder » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:16 pm

theckhd wrote:You might want to update the derivation portion as well, to reflect the new cap values. I rewrote the entire thing here for Digren.


I'm in the process of updating the whole OP to reflect changes in 4.0.3a. [b]For now I've left the original content from major changes in with a strikeout to better illustrate the changes in theory and calculations. Come cataclysm I'll likely do a complete rewrite of the OP with more relevant information and level 85 numbers.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby Digren » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:28 pm

vexryn wrote:Consequently, I see very, very little reason to pass on virtually any socket bonuses if they're at all relevant to survival.

Yup, I agree. Unfortunately it means I'm going to spend the next four months saying the same thing over and over again to each poster in the Gear Advice thread: "Stop using just stamina gems and match your socket bonuses!" Habits die hard.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby Awyndel » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:30 am

If you're in full 277 gear you can block cap with one avoidance trinket reforged to mastery ( corpse tongue hc ) .

If you're partially 277 it might be possible with 2 avoidance trinkets, both reforged to mastery.

If you have any lower gear you will need to sacrifice enchants and gems, and it will cost a lot of health.

For farming block capping can still be a good setup, unless you're wearing threat gear anyway. For a heavy melee fight too. But for things like sindy, halion and lk hc stamina might be more versatile.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1/4.0.3a)

Postby sculder » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:10 pm

Awyndel wrote:For farming block capping can still be a good setup, unless you're wearing threat gear anyway. For a heavy melee fight too. But for things like sindy, halion and lk hc stamina might be more versatile.


I did just fine on heroic halion and heroic lich king with ~98% avoidance and 58k unbuffed hp, so block capping isn't a necessity by any means. I also switched my parry/stam gems over to expertise/stam to cover some of the gap created when i had to lose a lot of the expertise I had reforged to prior to 4.0.3a. I'm nowhere close to the expertise level i was at before the patch, but my survivability is still quite good, despite being below block cap.

My personal recommendation is to not worry about it, unless you're progressing on heroic lich king, then I'd suggest at least having a reforged corpse tongue coin handy in case you should want to use it.
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