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Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

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Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby polonadis » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:18 am

Hi, this is a translation of a guide that I have been working on recently, hope you enjoy it.
The original (polish version) available here : http://accidentally.in-mist.net/forum/v ... php?t=3953

REFORGING FOR 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

As we all know, when patch 4.0.1 hits the live servers, a new feature - reforging will become available. This service provided by NPCs located in every major city allows us to chage 40% of an unwanted or less desirable stat into one we need provided that it is not yet present on the given item. Base stats cannot be reforged, though, with the exception of spirit.
It sounds pretty simple in theory, but can prove more difficult to master in practice. So how should we - prot paladins - use this featire to maximize the potential of our character?

First we need a little bit of theory :

- Both dodge and parry ratings suffer from diminishing returns which means that the more of the given stat we accumulate, the less effective it becomes at providing the stat (it requires more and more rating per point). The same rule applies to dodge gained through agility (the curve starts at about 0,02% dodge per point of agility), and to parry gained through strength (patch 4.0.1 introduced the formula that gives us a flat number of 0,25 parry rating per every point of strength we gain - base strength excluded).

- DR of each of the rating is independent which means their levels may vary depending on how much of the given rating we have on our gear.

- Raid buffs such as BoK/MotW, Battle Shout/HoW/Totems and consumables (str/agi food) provide us with additional avoidance which shouldn't be forgotten if our calculations are to be precise.

- The block cap (the certainty of blocking every hit that we fail to avoid) is at 102,4% and is the sum of dodge, parry, opponent's miss chance and our block chance.

- We get about 36% of combined block chance and avoidance for "free" : 5% base block chance + 16% block from mastery, 5% miss and approximately 5% dodge (depending on race - base agility). This means that we need about 66,4% of combined block chance and avoidance from gear to reach the block cap.

- A level 80 paladin geared in Icecrown 25 items is able to reach the block cap provided that the removal of the Icecrown dodge debuff makes it to live servers. Reaching the block cap should be our priority in gearing strategy as once reached it reliably mitigates 30% of all incoming physical damage.

- After hitting the block cap the paladin should focus on replacing mastery with pure avoidance (dodge, parry) while maintaining the cap.

Reforging in practice :
To account for raid buffs in the calculation be sure to bring some agi/str food and a shammy/dk/warrior friend to provide the agi/str buff to compliment your BoK.
Once you're set up run the following macro :

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combat table coverage. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5))

The goal is to reforge the gear in such a way that the last value the macro computes comes as close to 87,4 as possible while using a minimal amount of mastery rating. (Holy Shield provides the missing 15% )

Less geared protadins should firstly reforge hit and expertise or the higher of avoidance ratings on a given item (mainly in progression gear, of course)

There are 2 quick and easy ways to determine which stat - dodge or parry - should a better geared protadin reforge into mastery :

The easiest one is to swap librams "of Eternal Tower" (equal dodge and parry) and "of Three Truths" (equal strength) and checking which stat changed less (that's the one you should reforge). Keep in mind that if you have a strength gem in either of these, it will influence the parry rating and provide false results).

The other way is to write down your dodge and parry vlaues and gem dodge rating and parry rating in an empty socket, and reforging the stat that yielded a smaller gain. The gem, of course, can be of uncommon quality.

To maximize threat, instead of trying to swap mastery with pure avoidance after reaching the block cap, we should stack hit and expertise up to 8% and 14% respectively before stacking strength.
Last edited by polonadis on Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby sculder » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:29 am

Nice post. I've been able to reach cap on the ptr with reforging, and since then I've run dozens and dozens of heroics and a few raids with great results. I really like the new block changes, except for me no longer being able to block 100% of incoming damage in heroics...
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby Donpablo » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:02 am

Has anyone run into any number crunching about reforging for hit and expertise to get to cap for threat? Previously threat was no prob and we had enough attacks that were magic damage based or unblockable that it was unimportant, but from what I have been reading now, threat can be an issue so it might be prudent to push those stats to a point.
Thoughts?

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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby sculder » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:32 am

Donpablo wrote:Has anyone run into any number crunching about reforging for hit and expertise to get to cap for threat? Previously threat was no prob and we had enough attacks that were magic damage based or unblockable that it was unimportant, but from what I have been reading now, threat can be an issue so it might be prudent to push those stats to a point.
Thoughts?

DP


If you want to reach block cap with icc25 gear, it might be tough to stay on track with the best EH gear and still have some reforging points left for hit/exp. My gear on live gives me just over 5% hit and (glyphed) 23 expertise. While trying to hit block cap I'm fairly positive you'll have to reforge every piece of your gear (or just about). So what I will [likely] do is reforge most of my gear for mastery, and reforge a few pieces for threat stats, leaving me under block cap for now.

Of course this all depends on threat when the patch is deployed, as it's rather difficult to get an accurate measure of it on the ptr. Also, once we start getting gear with mastery on it (4.0.3), the block cap will require less reforging even with the cap increases when leveling past 80. If threat is solid when 4.0 hits (which I suspect it won't be...), I'll reforge everything to get to block cap. If threat is mediocre I'll be reforging for some more threat stats.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby polonadis » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:47 am

sculder wrote:If you want to reach block cap with icc25 gear, it might be tough to stay on track with the best EH gear and still have some reforging points left for hit/exp. My gear on live gives me just over 5% hit and (glyphed) 23 expertise. While trying to hit block cap I'm fairly positive you'll have to reforge every piece of your gear (or just about). So what I will [likely] do is reforge most of my gear for mastery, and reforge a few pieces for threat stats, leaving me under block cap for now.

Of course this all depends on threat when the patch is deployed, as it's rather difficult to get an accurate measure of it on the ptr. Also, once we start getting gear with mastery on it (4.0.3), the block cap will require less reforging even with the cap increases when leveling past 80. If threat is solid when 4.0 hits (which I suspect it won't be...), I'll reforge everything to get to block cap. If threat is mediocre I'll be reforging for some more threat stats.


Not necessarily. Remember that items with bonus armor are getting nerfed pretty hard in 4.0.1 which means that hit pieces such as the Royal Crimson Cloak, Legguards of Lost Hope, our tier10 legs as well as the Noose of Malachite and Blightborne Chestplate become very attaractive, and some of them (legs/cloak) will be the new BiS. Some non-hit items also start to look very appealing (especially the Blet of Broken Bones - BiS - and possibly Taldaram's Plated Fists).

I have almost BiS gear myself and I found it possible to maintain the block, hit and expertise cap at the same time not losing too much of avoidance.
The seal glyph is very helpful with achieving that purpose, giving us some room to work with expertise that is helpful in Halion encounter (I'm considering using the hit and expertise legs interchangably).

I'll try to submit my gear setup from the PTR as well as stats in the near feature (before and after reforging). I lack a few pieces that I started to collect on live, however (belt/hands), so they won't be as accurate. If I won't find time to do so, I'll definitely submit my reforged gear once 4.0.1 hits live servers.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:06 am

polonadis wrote:- Both dodge and parry ratings suffer from diminishing returns which means that the more of the given stat we accumulate, the less effective it becomes at providing the stat (it requires more and more rating per point). The same rule applies to dodge gained through agility (the curve starts at about 0,02% dodge per point of agility), but not to parry gained through strength (patch 4.0.1 introduced this formula that gives us 0,25 parry rating per every point of strength we gain - base strength excluded).


Do you have evidence of the underlined portion? My understanding was that the parry gained through STR is affected by DR in exactly the same way that the dodge from AGI is.

<edit> Also, it's a good bet that the rule of thumb on which to gem will just be "whichever is lower." Before the str->parry conversion was implemented, we started out with 5% base parry and ~5.5% dodge that were unaffected by DR. If the parry gained from base STR is similarly unaffected by DR, it'll raise us to 5.9% base parry.

They could nerf base parry for plate tanking classes to equalize these even further, of course. But even if they don't, the formula would be (dodge%-5.5)/(parry%-5.9)=1, which is going to be close enough to 1:1 that most people won't bother optimizing any more accurately than that.

It's also worth noting that dodge and parry are different gem colors in Cataclysm, so the question of "which one do I put in a red socket for avoidance" will soon be irrelevant.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby sculder » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:29 am

for my ptr testing purposes I essentially equaled out my dodge and parry, byt reforging the higher of the two stats to mastery, bringing them down to equal levels. If some new information comes to light about the str/parry DR issues, that could change a lot in terms of what to reforge, as well as drastically changing the bis list.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby polonadis » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:01 am

theckhd wrote:
Do you have evidence of the underlined portion? My understanding was that the parry gained through STR is affected by DR in exactly the same way that the dodge from AGI is.

<edit> Also, it's a good bet that the rule of thumb on which to gem will just be "whichever is lower." Before the str->parry conversion was implemented, we started out with 5% base parry and ~5.5% dodge that were unaffected by DR. If the parry gained from base STR is similarly unaffected by DR, it'll raise us to 5.9% base parry.

They could nerf base parry for plate tanking classes to equalize these even further, of course. But even if they don't, the formula would be (dodge%-5.5)/(parry%-5.9)=1, which is going to be close enough to 1:1 that most people won't bother optimizing any more accurately than that.

It's also worth noting that dodge and parry are different gem colors in Cataclysm, so the question of "which one do I put in a red socket for avoidance" will soon be irrelevant.


How much parry rating we gain through strength has no DR and is a flat value of 0,25 rating per every 1str point we get except base value.
This is supported by PTR data :

base strenght yields 0 parry rating (naked char)
putting on 1 ret piece (148 strength with no avoidance stats) yields 37 parry rating. 37/148 = 0,25 rating per str point
putting on a lot of ret gear : 1324 strength with no avoidance stats on gear yields 331 parry rating. 331/1324 = 0,25 rating per str point

HOWEVER, it's parry rating. The rate at which we get this rating has no DR, but the rating itself of course counts towards parry DR.

Agility (tested the same way) stays the same as live : first agility point = ~0,02 dodge ; 702 agi = 11,63% dodge (~0,016 per agi on avarage)

- we get NO extra parry from base strength (which I stated in my original post)

the gemming example had nothing to do with which stat to gem, but it was intended as a simple test to show less experienced players how to determine which avoidance stat to REFORGE. the socket color is irrelevant for that purpose (unless the socket bonus is str, agi or avoidance).
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby tlitp » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:32 am

Code: Select all
avoiddr=avoid_dr(gear.dodge+consum.dodge,gear.parry+consum.parry ...
    +floor((player.str-base.stats.str)./4),player.agi-base.stats.agi); %DR for dodge/parry

Silly Theck is silly. :P
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby econ21 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:06 pm

polonadis wrote: Reaching the block cap should be our priority in gearing strategy as once reached it reliably mitigates 30% of all incoming physical damage.


So we are going back to the pre-wotlk world where getting block capped is the number one priority? Then stack effective health? I hope so, as that's more interesting strategy than just stack effective health.

But if so, I guess this is just a transitional phase as after level 80, I gather the ratings required to give you % avoidance become too unfavorable to get unblockable with available gear.

I wonder, how will we be trading off avoidance and effective health when it comes to starting heroics at level 85?
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:08 pm

tlitp wrote:
Code: Select all
avoiddr=avoid_dr(gear.dodge+consum.dodge,gear.parry+consum.parry ...
    +floor((player.str-base.stats.str)./4),player.agi-base.stats.agi); %DR for dodge/parry

Silly Theck is silly. :P

That's exactly why I asked. However, I misread the OP - I thought he was trying to say that the parry gained through strength was not subject to DR. The way he worded it was sort of ambiguous:

- Both dodge and parry ratings suffer from diminishing returns which means that the more of the given stat we accumulate, the less effective it becomes at providing the stat (it requires more and more rating per point). The same rule applies to dodge gained through agility (the curve starts at about 0,02% dodge per point of agility), but not to parry gained through strength (patch 4.0.1 introduced this formula that gives us 0,25 parry rating per every point of strength we gain - base strength excluded).


I see now what he was trying to say - the dodge gained through agility is subject to DR, but the parry rating gained through strength is not. I'd suggest rewording it (or at least adding the word "rating"), simply because ratings are never subject to DR, it's always the rating->% conversion that invokes DR calculations. The statement "DR isn't applied to parry gained from strength" is ambiguous at best, and outright false at worst. Especially since you're talking about dodge % in the first half of the sentence.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby polonadis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:06 am

I agree, and I see that in the original version I do have the word rating included.

The reason why i mention dodge as a % chance in the first half of the sentence and parry as rating in the other is because the parry gained through str shows up as extra rating on our avoidance tab (it's gear parry rating + str parry rating which is then converted into parry%), whereas dodge rating we gain through agility does not - it is converted straight into dodge (the dodge rating tab reflects only the rating we get from gear, and not the one coming out of agility, even though it is included in dodge%).
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby Kihra » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:43 am

I think it would be good to mention the cutoffs at which DR on Dodge and Parry start making it more favorable to convert to Mastery rating. I think someone computed in another thread that the cutoffs were around 21.5% for both (ever so slightly lower for Parry).

I had about 26% Dodge and 21% Parry when I copied over to the PTR, and so I ended up using Hit Rating and Dodge Rating to obtain my mastery. I did not reforge Parry to Mastery because I was already below the point where it would be a favorable conversion.

Basically the goal should be to hit the block cap while maximizing your Dodge/Parry, and we'll need to educate people regarding the cutoff points so they know how to maximize the Mastery conversion.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:58 pm

polonadis wrote:I agree, and I see that in the original version I do have the word rating included.

The reason why i mention dodge as a % chance in the first half of the sentence and parry as rating in the other is because the parry gained through str shows up as extra rating on our avoidance tab (it's gear parry rating + str parry rating which is then converted into parry%), whereas dodge rating we gain through agility does not - it is converted straight into dodge (the dodge rating tab reflects only the rating we get from gear, and not the one coming out of agility, even though it is included in dodge%).


Yeah, I see why you structured the sentence the way you did. It was just confusing enough to catch me skimming.

The rule of thumb we came up with in Wrath was always to look at your dodge and parry percentages rather than ratings for that exact reason. If the information Khira posted is correct, that means that the rule of thumb this expansion is:

Keep dodge and parry % at a 1:1 ratio while fully raid-buffed.
Reforge dodge or parry into mastery up until you reach block cap or until dodge or parry drops to 21.5%.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:23 pm

Just checking the math for Khira's statement:

H = hit size
A = Avoidance
B = Block

Damage taken = H(1-A-B)+0*A + 0.7*H*B = H(1-A-0.3*B)

Now trade avoidance dA for block dB:

DT'=H(1-(A-dA)-0.3*(B+dB))

Diff=DT'-DT=H-HA+HdA-0.3HB+0.3HdB-H+HA+0.3HB = H(dA-0.3*dB)

Thus, you take less damage if the avoidance you lose is less than 0.3 times the block% you gain.

Assume 10 of each stat. Mastery is fixed at 45.906 rating per point of mastery, and each point gives us 2% block. 10 mastery therefore gives us 0.43567% block, and we'd need 10 parry to give us less than 0.1307 avoidance for the trade to be worthwhile.

According to the matlab model, that occurs when you have 931 parry rating, or 21.21% parry on your character sheet.

It's the same calculation for dodge, but since we have more base dodge it comes out to 21.6% dodge on your character sheet. To get that in rating, you need to assume a particular level of agility buffs, so it's probably just easier to work in percentages.
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