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4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby domoaligato » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:47 pm

Theck are you saying that it appears as if the priority queue is like this ....

Judgement (if HP=3 and CS cd > 1.5s and SD isn't up) > ShoR (if HP=3) > CS > Judgement > Avenger's Shield > Holy Wrath > Cons


How would I start the boss pull before the priority queue? now that HoR is pretty much worthless?

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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:58 pm

I haven't finished the simulation code yet, so I'm not sure. But it's a reasonable guess, at the very least.

On the pull, you'd probably want to open up with AS->Judge->CS. That has some annoying side effects later on, so AS->CS->Judge would probably be better overall if you can close distance to the boss faster.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby Chicken » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:23 am

You can also start off with a hard cast of Exorcism in most cases. Just don't ever cast Exorcism when something is in melee range.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby Neptuno » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:52 pm

theckhd wrote:I haven't finished the simulation code yet, so I'm not sure. But it's a reasonable guess, at the very least.

On the pull, you'd probably want to open up with AS->Judge->CS. That has some annoying side effects later on, so AS->CS->Judge would probably be better overall if you can close distance to the boss faster.


would probably mean the "utility" of Imp Judgement since that's yet another reason to judge on the run in.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby Alandrek » Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:55 pm

My own thoughts, from tinkering on a spreadsheet and some PTR testing.

- Opening Sequence: AS -> CS -> Judgment

This gives us solid opening threat and minimizes cooldown collisions later. We also have the option of using Exo before AS for additional opening threat, provided nothing is in melee range at the time.

- Ongoing Priority: SotR > AS > CS > Judgment

I realize that delaying a CS effectively delays 3-stack SotR as well, but since AS is just as hard-hitting as SotR on PTR it seems worthwhile to minimize the chance of wasted GC procs by ensuring AS is on cooldown before using CS. Maximizing GC procs also helps fill the empty GCDs we get (despite using Holy Wrath and Consecration as filler).

Sacred Duty is very interesting. If we happen to use Judgment with no Holy Power and proc SD, we will inevitably cast Judgment again before we have our third Holy Power for SotR. If that second Judgment also procs SD, we've "wasted" the first proc. What this effectively amounts to is a choice between hasting SotR by 33% and guaranteeing it will 2x crit. While choosing the crit will give us more overall DPS/TPS, there may be specific situations where we would choose the haste because we urgently need the burst threat. So in addition to a DPS boost, the talent also gives us some flexibility despite the rigid limits of our Holy Power generation.

EDIT: Actually, it would make sense to prioritize AS over SotR. Once you hit CS for the third Holy Power, you have two GCDs before you use CS again - and so long as you hit SotR on one of those two GCDs it will have the same overall DPS. So if you hit CS and GC procs (or AS comes off cooldown on its own), it would be better to use AS before SotR to start the cooldown timer on AS one GCD sooner - making the priority AS > SotR > CS > Judgment rather than the above.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby daiceman » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:24 am

The problem with judging before a cs is that the buff will fall off before yoju can use it. Currently SD is a 15 second duration. As it takes 13.5 seconds to build 3 holy power, add 1.5 seconds for the judgement before it, and the buff will be gone before you can use it.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby Chicken » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:11 am

I think that's one of those specific situations in which using a 2 Holy Power [HoPo] Shield of the Righteous [SotR] can be better. A crit of a 2 HoPo SotR does the same damage as a non-crit 3 HoPo SotR does. That's just a feeling on my part though, there's a lot of other considerations as well which will probably need to be figured out through a simulator of some sort to find the optimal course of action.

Edit: Er, I'm talking about on pull Judgement providing a Sacred Duty proc here. Just for clarity. Chances are it's true in any situation where you have to choose between 2 HoPo SotR with Sacred Duty versus 3 HoPo SotR without Sacred Duty.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby Phonic » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:41 pm

Chicken wrote:Chances are it's true in any situation where you have to choose between 2 HoPo SotR with Sacred Duty versus 3 HoPo SotR without Sacred Duty.


This is the key right here. One where we won't know until the "final" numbers are released.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby Arnel » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:02 am

GC announced something interesting.

Source
Crusader Strike - 3 sec cooldown. Hammer of the Righteous - 3 sec cooldown. Cooldown shared for both.


Source
We realized that the AE portion of Hammer of the Righteous didn't scale with Vengeance. While it's true that Prot paladins gain some spell power, they get it from Strength, not the attack power provided by Vengeance. We changed Hammer to scale with attack power, which should mean it hits harder with Vengeance. That will provide some of the damage boost you are looking for.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby edsdame » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:53 am

How do you all plan to bind your keys to the actionbars?
If I am not wrong, there will be the following:

CS
HoW
Judgement
AS
ShotR
Consecration
HW
WoG
(Inq)
These are the ones we have to use frequently. It's pretty overwhelming even without our 'oh snap cds'. I am planning to use modifiers binded on mouse buttons, but it will be a hard time getting used to the new system. Any tips to optimize this? (I am also planning to use something like OPie for 'oh snaps'.)
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:21 am

I'm still a bit undecided. I use my mouse buttons heavily, so most things will be bound to them:

CS: mouse4
HotR: mouse5
ShoR: shift+mouse4
AS: shift+mouse5
HW: mouse6
Cons: shift+mouse6
Jud: 2

That covers the basics. I have both taunts on mouse7/shift+mouse7 just like I do on live. mouse8 is for LoH.

I think Inq will end up on Q at this rate, for lack of a better place to put it. I'm also going to try and consolidate my cooldowns in one area (right now trinkets are W, Bubblewall is shift+X, DS is X).

I play with a pretty non-standard layout though, I've always remapped movement/strafe to ESDF.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:29 pm

Oddly I don't see a thread about what we're actually seeing on live, but this is relevant.

My tooltips say 3.0 seconds for CS and HotR, but they don't come up every other GCD... anyone else seeing this? 4.5s HotR is really cramping my AE tanking.

-- Actually, I'm not sure what's going on. It just seems like if I do CS-J- the other abilities come off the GCD a short bit before CS is available again. It's almost like I have a little bit of haste affecting my GCD or something, but that doesn't make sense. It's definitely not a full 1.5 seconds, but it's strangely noticeable. And, my AE threat in HPoS on the caster packs and the skeleton packs near the end was just abysmal, where I wasn't expecting that with a 3.0s HotR and a "huge" 200% threat bonus.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby steadypal » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:59 pm

thats interesting i noticed a bit of dead time to...


can anyone confirm or deny? 3sec tooltip but spells still on 4.5 timer?
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby Blarry » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:59 am

Also noticed some dead time shortly before CS/HotR should be off CD. As this occured even when soloing without any haste buffs or haste on gear, it's safe to assume that Prots' CS/HotR are not magically enhanced by haste.

I had latency in mind, as latency on PTR was around 250-300 for me. Still doesn't explain why only our 3.0-second attacks should be affected by this.

Quite stunned about this now, as it really made the rotation feel quirky.
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Re: 4.0 Rotation (pre cata)

Postby Metherlance » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:40 am

Blarry wrote:Also noticed some dead time shortly before CS/HotR should be off CD. As this occured even when soloing without any haste buffs or haste on gear, it's safe to assume that Prots' CS/HotR are not magically enhanced by haste.

I had latency in mind, as latency on PTR was around 250-300 for me. Still doesn't explain why only our 3.0-second attacks should be affected by this.

Quite stunned about this now, as it really made the rotation feel quirky.


The culprit could be that new ability queue system. If you use ability at wrong time it feels like there's an extra gcd. There SHOULD be a fix coming to it but.. yeah I wonder when if ever.
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