A Call to Arms  Cataclysm Mechanics testing
Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
This is using Human base stats, because I don't have the updated level 80 base Draenei or BE stats. In fact, I'd like to doublecheck all of the racial base stats (I suspect the STA value I have for humans is wrong), so if you have a level 80 paladin of any race on the PTR, please post the naked STR/STA/AGI/INT/SPI values.
Base Blood Elf Stats @ lvl 80 (no spec chosen)
Str: 148
Agi: 92
Stam: 203
Int: 101
Spi: 103
 Staryx
 Posts: 8
 Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:31 pm
 Location: Niagara Falls, NY
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
here is a HoL run I did. I AoE tanked it like I would in live. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6a6dffa0pbkx1k5r/
Warning: Experimental Tank
"Warriors make you Sap. Paladins let you Sap"

angelflavor  Posts: 49
 Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:00 am
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
Test #1: Holy Wrath
Done with 0/36/0 spec only missing points in imp hammer of justice
Test #2: Crusader Strike
Same Talent Build as before, using Dalaran sword on the 80 dummy.
AP / SP parse
522 / 178 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l0koreniv3y8neag/details/14/
1516 / 476 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6ah5m5xk64qyenva/details/21/
1664 / 934 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4awsa5rag1g3q5ud/details/12/
2400 / 1155 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0mygxaselsxipxqd/details/13/
2966 / 1211 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zkuazchxir5pbctu/details/14/
3714 / 1146 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/72n898p8ckvctlgc/details/8/
Done with 0/36/0 spec only missing points in imp hammer of justice
 Code: Select all
# of targets
sp 1 2 3
178 2262 1157 789
490 2448 1298 914
1123 2827 1581 1166
1494 3051 1750 1315
2014 3363 1983 1524
Test #2: Crusader Strike
Same Talent Build as before, using Dalaran sword on the 80 dummy.
AP / SP parse
522 / 178 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l0koreniv3y8neag/details/14/
1516 / 476 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6ah5m5xk64qyenva/details/21/
1664 / 934 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4awsa5rag1g3q5ud/details/12/
2400 / 1155 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0mygxaselsxipxqd/details/13/
2966 / 1211 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zkuazchxir5pbctu/details/14/
3714 / 1146 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/72n898p8ckvctlgc/details/8/
Last edited by Kierly on Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 Kierly
 Posts: 15
 Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:39 am
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
theckhd wrote:New requests:
Test #1: Holy Wrath
This one is easy, since the damage is a fixed amount. Find a dummy with no debuffs, and record Holy Wrath damage for various spellpower levels. I.e. naked, ~500 sp, ~1000 sp, ~1500 sp, etc. Gear is basically irrelevant, since all we need is SP and HW damage. Since HW hits for a fixed amount, you don't even need more than one data point for each SP value, so this can be done with a pencil and paper instead of WoL. Make sure you note your spec  0/38/0 preferred, but I'll take what I can get.
Then repeat the test from a spot where you can hit 3 dummies, again, no debuffs.
The level of the dummy should be irrelevant, but post it anyway just to be safe.
Current spec on PTR: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#sZGMhfRdkRRuc
 Code: Select all
Source: lvl 80 BE
Dummy level: 80 (1 dummy) 80/70/60 (3 dummies)
SP DMG (1 dummy) DMG (3 dummies)
179 2262 789
281 2322 830
969 2736 1106
1018 2765 1125
1276 3065 1290
1341 3107 1317
Recorded only noncrit HW casts. 3 dummy tests were run on 1 of each level dummy (best I could get in Undercity). My apologies if the SP numbers aren't varied enough, only had Prot and Ret gear to test with and Kings/No Kings as well. I can mix up my gear more and test again if needed. Also, the 179 test is naked, if that matters for a baseline.
 Staryx
 Posts: 8
 Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:31 pm
 Location: Niagara Falls, NY
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
0/34/0 Spec lvl 80 BE
#Case 1+2 (2 Dummies)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1lebwz97gy5vmrsg/
#Case 1+3 (2 Dummies)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/gr9r9c3cfqvcadk6/
In the last seconds of the log, I had a boomy come in and nuke the 2nd dummy T_T
Rats.. .can't get a 2000AP/1000SP without either getting a 5% all damage bonus or HotR 5% damage bonus >=/
 Code: Select all
Stats
Str  295
Agi  92
Stamina  895
Int  270
Spirit  221
Damage  143179
DPS  115.6
[b]AP  1010[/b]
Speed  1.39
Haste  0.52%
Hit  1.72%
Crit  4.8%
Exp  3
Mastery  9.63
[b]SP  497[/b]
Haste  0.52%
Hit  2.02%
Crit  7.33%
#Case 1+2 (2 Dummies)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1lebwz97gy5vmrsg/
#Case 1+3 (2 Dummies)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/gr9r9c3cfqvcadk6/
In the last seconds of the log, I had a boomy come in and nuke the 2nd dummy T_T
Rats.. .can't get a 2000AP/1000SP without either getting a 5% all damage bonus or HotR 5% damage bonus >=/
Last edited by Klaudandus on Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole

Flüttershy  Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus  BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semiretired)

Flüttershy  Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus  BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semiretired)

Klaudandus  Posts: 11015
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 Location: Texas' Armpit
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
 Code: Select all
Source: lvl 80 Dwarf
Dummy level: 60 (1 dummy) 80/70/60 (3 dummies)
SP DMG (1 dummy) DMG (3 dummies)
1956 3326 (4990C) 1499 (2250C)
2147 3441 (5162C) 1576 (2365C)
2343 3559 (5388C) 1655 (2481C)
2504 3655 (5484C) 1719 (2579C)
2781 3821 (5733C) 1829 (2745C)
3016 3963 (5945C) 1923 (2885C)
3251 4104 (6155C) 2018 (3028C)
3520 4265 (6399C) 2125 (3188C)
3703 4375 (6564C) 2199 (3298C)
0/36/0 build on the PTR with kings up.
~Arathor~
Arianne  80 Paladin  Protection
Arianne  80 Paladin  Protection
 Arianne
 Posts: 502
 Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
0/34/0 lvl 80 BE
Caveat  getting the 2000AP/1000AP was a paint in the ass. Ended up with the +50 AP bonus from the pvp set. Better than the +5% all damage or the +5% HotR damage. I think.
Case 1+2 (2 Dummies)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xa5boddadusynahb/
Case 1+3 (2 Dummies)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z8noluje1yi7rbf0/
Sorry for the short duration of the HotR case  the cata event started midway thru it. Will resume after event.
 Code: Select all
Stats
Str  875
Agi  92
Stam  2242
Int  466
Spirit  311
Melee  244280
Dps  192.3
[b]AP  2020[/b]
Speed  1.36
Haste  2.68%
Hit  0.91%
Crit 14.95%
[b]SP  981[/b]
Haste  2.68%
Hit  1.07%
Crit  18.67%
Caveat  getting the 2000AP/1000AP was a paint in the ass. Ended up with the +50 AP bonus from the pvp set. Better than the +5% all damage or the +5% HotR damage. I think.
Case 1+2 (2 Dummies)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xa5boddadusynahb/
Case 1+3 (2 Dummies)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z8noluje1yi7rbf0/
Sorry for the short duration of the HotR case  the cata event started midway thru it. Will resume after event.
Last edited by Klaudandus on Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Flüttershy  Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus  BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semiretired)

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 Location: Texas' Armpit
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
Klaudandus wrote:Caveat  getting the 2000AP/1000AP was a paint in the ass. Ended up with the +50 AP bonus from the pvp set. Better than the +5% all damage or the +5% HotR damage. I think.
Maybe I should have been clearer  I don't actually need data points at the exact values of AP and SP I put in my request. Those numbers were just made up to give an example data format. I just need data points covering a large range of both AP and SP.
Thanks for all of the data everyone, I'll try and get crunching on it tonight, but I have a raid in an hour and a half, so some of it might have to wait until tomorrow. Then we can get to the bottom of these last few outstanding issues (at least until they push a new patch and change something else...).
Also, if anyone has time to do some quick tests of Hammer of Wrath or Exorcism, we're sorely lacking data for those. Similar setup to the previous tests, just need average damage at a few SP/AP combinations.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd  Moderator
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Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
Staryx wrote:Base Blood Elf Stats @ lvl 80 (no spec chosen)
Str: 148
Agi: 92
Stam: 203
Int: 101
Spi: 103
I'm guessing you're a miner? 203 is way too high for a base stam value. But 143 would be right in line with the other races, and mining apparently gives +60 stam...
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 7710
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 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
theckhd wrote:Klaudandus wrote:Caveat  getting the 2000AP/1000AP was a paint in the ass. Ended up with the +50 AP bonus from the pvp set. Better than the +5% all damage or the +5% HotR damage. I think.
Maybe I should have been clearer  I don't actually need data points at the exact values of AP and SP I put in my request. Those numbers were just made up to give an example data format. I just need data points covering a large range of both AP and SP.
Thanks for all of the data everyone, I'll try and get crunching on it tonight, but I have a raid in an hour and a half, so some of it might have to wait until tomorrow. Then we can get to the bottom of these last few outstanding issues (at least until they push a new patch and change something else...).
Also, if anyone has time to do some quick tests of Hammer of Wrath or Exorcism, we're sorely lacking data for those. Similar setup to the previous tests, just need average damage at a few SP/AP combinations.
0/34/0 lvl 80 BE
Hammer of Wrath on Grol: 20/10
 Code: Select all
Stats
Str  875
Agi  92
Stam  2242
Int  466
Spirit  311
Melee  244280
Dps  192.3
AP  2020
Speed  1.36
Haste  2.68%
Hit  0.91%
Crit 14.95%
SP  981
Haste  2.68%
Hit  1.07%
Crit  18.67%
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/essvi3j028394xkl/

Hammer of Wrath on Grol: 10/5
 Code: Select all
str  395
agi  92
sta  770
int  194
spi  171
damage 156  194
dps  124.8
ap  1010
speed  140
haste  0
hit 2.63
crit  3.71
sp  421
hit  3.09
crit  5.79
somehow couldnt get the same set as what I had on the previous case for CS/HotR.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5dkds5mpdp1ljdsc/

Hammer of Wrath on Grol: Naked
Had to use Seal of Insight and Flash of Light to keep myself alive for 10 mins during the last parse. Hope it doesn't affect the numbers.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yir113iuort8dl8h/
Last edited by Klaudandus on Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:01 pm, edited 6 times in total.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole

Flüttershy  Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus  BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semiretired)

Flüttershy  Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus  BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semiretired)

Klaudandus  Posts: 11015
 Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
 Location: Texas' Armpit
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
theckhd wrote:Staryx wrote:Base Blood Elf Stats @ lvl 80 (no spec chosen)
Str: 148
Agi: 92
Stam: 203
Int: 101
Spi: 103
I'm guessing you're a miner? 203 is way too high for a base stam value. But 143 would be right in line with the other races, and mining apparently gives +60 stam...
Doh! Yeah, forgot about that. Yep, got 450 mining and yeah, it's +60 Stam.
 Staryx
 Posts: 8
 Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:31 pm
 Location: Niagara Falls, NY
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
Holy Wrath analysis:
The data sets from Kierly and Arianne are nice and linear, and cover the range I need. Staryx's data set seems good up until the last two points from both tests (i.e. the 1276 and 1341 SP data points for both 1 and 3 targets). Those two damage values are discontinuous and don't agree with the other two data sets:
The blue line is Staryx's data set, the red and green lines are Kierly and Arianne respectively. These are the singletarget damage values, but the same effect happens in the 3target tests. From this we have to conclude that something about those two gear sets is affecting the HW damage, and ignore those two points.
Fitting the combined data set (<3 cftool) gives us the following results:
Ergo, the formula of Holy Wrath damage should be (2154+0.6*SP) for a single target. Note that this is twice the SP coefficient in the model, which is a little weird (model was 2420+0.3*SP).
Repeating for the 3target data gives:
In other words, for 3 targets the damage is (717.6+0.4*SP). Interesting. Base damage is round(2154/3) for 3 targets, but the SP coefficient isn't just 0.6/3.
Fitting Kierly's data for 2 targets gives us a base damage of 2154/2 and a coefficient of 0.45.
So the coefficient is decreasing as number of targets increases, but not by a straight factor of 1/N. On a whim, I threw this scaling into cftool and tried fitting it with a 1/x form, since it looks roughly like that. Sure enough, here's what it spit out:
With only 3 data points, it's hard to be sure, but it's a reasonably good bet that the new formula @ level 80 is:
damage=2154/N+(0.3/N+0.3)*SP
What does this mean? Personally, I think it's a bug. The formula before was 2154/N+0.3*SP, which has the weird "feature" that it calculates damage per mob from the base and then applies the spellpower bonus damage to each mob. I expected them to fix it by changing the formula to (2154+0.3*SP)/N; in other words, calculate total damage first, then divide it all by the number of mobs to determine damage per mob. That makes perfect sense.
Instead, we now have (2154+0.3*SP)/N + 0.3*SP. In other words, we have both versions of the formula simultaneously. My guess is that they tried to change the spell to split the spellpower bonus across all mobs, but didn't actually fix whatever bug is causing the extra spellpower damage to be applied to each mob individually.
In any event, right now we know how it acts. We'll have to check this again after a future patch to see if it's fixed.
If anyone wants to help confirm this, just find an area of dummies where you can hit a large number of targets and see what your damage is on 1, 2, 3, 4, ... dummies. If we keep getting the 0.3*(1+1/N) scaling, we should expect to see the total damage increase by 0.3*SP for each additional dummy you hit.
The data sets from Kierly and Arianne are nice and linear, and cover the range I need. Staryx's data set seems good up until the last two points from both tests (i.e. the 1276 and 1341 SP data points for both 1 and 3 targets). Those two damage values are discontinuous and don't agree with the other two data sets:
The blue line is Staryx's data set, the red and green lines are Kierly and Arianne respectively. These are the singletarget damage values, but the same effect happens in the 3target tests. From this we have to conclude that something about those two gear sets is affecting the HW damage, and ignore those two points.
Fitting the combined data set (<3 cftool) gives us the following results:
 Code: Select all
Linear model Poly1:
f(x) = p1*x + p2
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
p1 = 0.5995 (0.5991, 0.6)
p2 = 2154 (2153, 2155)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 6.555
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 0.7391
Ergo, the formula of Holy Wrath damage should be (2154+0.6*SP) for a single target. Note that this is twice the SP coefficient in the model, which is a little weird (model was 2420+0.3*SP).
Repeating for the 3target data gives:
 Code: Select all
Linear model Poly1:
f(x) = p1*x + p2
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
p1 = 0.3999 (0.3995, 0.4002)
p2 = 717.6 (716.9, 718.4)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 4.078
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 0.583
In other words, for 3 targets the damage is (717.6+0.4*SP). Interesting. Base damage is round(2154/3) for 3 targets, but the SP coefficient isn't just 0.6/3.
Fitting Kierly's data for 2 targets gives us a base damage of 2154/2 and a coefficient of 0.45.
So the coefficient is decreasing as number of targets increases, but not by a straight factor of 1/N. On a whim, I threw this scaling into cftool and tried fitting it with a 1/x form, since it looks roughly like that. Sure enough, here's what it spit out:
 Code: Select all
General model:
f(x) = a/x+b
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
a = 0.3 (0.3, 0.3)
b = 0.3 (0.3, 0.3)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 7.452e020
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 2.73e010
With only 3 data points, it's hard to be sure, but it's a reasonably good bet that the new formula @ level 80 is:
damage=2154/N+(0.3/N+0.3)*SP
What does this mean? Personally, I think it's a bug. The formula before was 2154/N+0.3*SP, which has the weird "feature" that it calculates damage per mob from the base and then applies the spellpower bonus damage to each mob. I expected them to fix it by changing the formula to (2154+0.3*SP)/N; in other words, calculate total damage first, then divide it all by the number of mobs to determine damage per mob. That makes perfect sense.
Instead, we now have (2154+0.3*SP)/N + 0.3*SP. In other words, we have both versions of the formula simultaneously. My guess is that they tried to change the spell to split the spellpower bonus across all mobs, but didn't actually fix whatever bug is causing the extra spellpower damage to be applied to each mob individually.
In any event, right now we know how it acts. We'll have to check this again after a future patch to see if it's fixed.
If anyone wants to help confirm this, just find an area of dummies where you can hit a large number of targets and see what your damage is on 1, 2, 3, 4, ... dummies. If we keep getting the 0.3*(1+1/N) scaling, we should expect to see the total damage increase by 0.3*SP for each additional dummy you hit.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd  Moderator
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Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
Out of curiosity Theck, does my HW data fit the linear equation as well? I was always hitting 2 dummy targets as well
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Klaudandus  BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semiretired)

Flüttershy  Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
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 Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
 Location: Texas' Armpit
Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
Klaudandus wrote:Out of curiosity Theck, does my HW data fit the linear equation as well? I was always hitting 2 dummy targets as well
I haven't had time to look, since I was going to check yours when I was looking at the CS/HotR data. But I have the new model incorporated into the code now, so when I get to that, it should be pretty apparent. If you could annotate your posts with the number of dummys you were hitting that would help save some time, otherwise I have to use the Log Browser to check that.
<edit> obviously you just said how many dummies, but it'll be easier for me to remember it tomorrow if it's in the post with the data links.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd  Moderator
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Re: A call to arms  Beta/PTR parses on WoL
Kierly's CS data yields no correlation with SP (as expected) and the following with AP:
71 is the base damage you'd get from a dalaran sword with 0 AP in that talent spec against an 80 dummy, so that's good.
The formula should be
1.2*(base+X*ap/14)*mdf.phdmg*mdf.Crus*(1+2*mdf.WotL)
where X is either 2.4 (for normalized attacks) or the player's swing speed (for nonnormalized attacks, 1.4 for dalaran sword). 1.2*mdf.phdmf*(1+2*mdf.WotL0 works out to be 1.1717.
Thus, p1=1.1717*X/14 > X=14*p1/1.1717=2.4112. Close enough to be sure that CS is still a normalized attack (the exact coefficient would be 0.2009, which is within the 95% confidence interval).
So CS is coded properly already, which means that something else is causing the weird effects we were seeing earlier. It might be a sample size issue or an interfering debuff. I'll continue checking the rest of the CS parses submitted today to make sure that none of them are seeing the erroneous behavior.
 Code: Select all
Linear model Poly1:
f(x) = p1*x + p2
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
p1 = 0.2018 (0.2, 0.2035)
p2 = 70.58 (66.47, 74.68)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 10.05
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 1.585
71 is the base damage you'd get from a dalaran sword with 0 AP in that talent spec against an 80 dummy, so that's good.
The formula should be
1.2*(base+X*ap/14)*mdf.phdmg*mdf.Crus*(1+2*mdf.WotL)
where X is either 2.4 (for normalized attacks) or the player's swing speed (for nonnormalized attacks, 1.4 for dalaran sword). 1.2*mdf.phdmf*(1+2*mdf.WotL0 works out to be 1.1717.
Thus, p1=1.1717*X/14 > X=14*p1/1.1717=2.4112. Close enough to be sure that CS is still a normalized attack (the exact coefficient would be 0.2009, which is within the 95% confidence interval).
So CS is coded properly already, which means that something else is causing the weird effects we were seeing earlier. It might be a sample size issue or an interfering debuff. I'll continue checking the rest of the CS parses submitted today to make sure that none of them are seeing the erroneous behavior.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

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