Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:57 pm

Marilee wrote:That's a silly comparison. It'd be more like if they made it so warriors had several seconds added to the cooldown of Shield Slam every time a Devastate missed/parried/dodged. Blah.

There are a lot of things wrong with that comparison, so much so that if it weren't a blue poster that I'd write it off as a troll. It has nothing to do with "failing" or missing attacks. It's about the resource generation model for the class.

But then again, i guess Zarhym is a CM, not a game designer. WTB Ghostcrawler back.

I'm going to need to adjust the analytical models considerably now. As a brief brainstorming session, which is all I have the energy for at the moment, this reduces our rotation to:

CS-X-

X is filled by SotR>J>AS>Cons>HW. Thus, what matters now is not a 9-second cycle, but a 3-second block. We need to figure out the following things:
  • mean number of CS casts to gain 3 holy power as a function of hit/exp
  • chance of J being available (easy, for a 3-second cycle it's always 1 every 9 seconds, or 1 out of every 3 cycles)
  • chance of AS being available (we've already solved this problem for the 9-second rot, this is a minor variation)
  • chance of Cons being available, given the interference effects of J and AS
  • chance of HW being available, given the interference effects of J, AS, Cons, HW

This should allow us to calculate weighting factors for the X slot for each ability, which we can double-check against the priority simulation.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Fetzie » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:38 pm

When browsing the us forum I saw this thread

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2046564949

apparently Avenger's Shield is stacking Censure on the targets it lands on. There is a WoL link in the thread and a youtube link which supposedly confirm this.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:57 pm

Pyrea wrote:When browsing the us forum I saw this thread

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2046564949

apparently Avenger's Shield is stacking Censure on the targets it lands on. There is a WoL link in the thread and a youtube link which supposedly confirm this.



will it do initial application? or just refresh/restack ?


I'm in the middle of a raid so can't really test it at a dummy atm
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Durability » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:44 pm

Pyrea wrote:When browsing the us forum I saw this thread

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2046564949

apparently Avenger's Shield is stacking Censure on the targets it lands on. There is a WoL link in the thread and a youtube link which supposedly confirm this.


I can confirm this behavior. It triggers Seal of Truth damage as well at 5 stacks.

EDIT: Between that and it no longer doing OP things with DC:H, perhaps AS and HOW are classed as melee attacks now for the purposes of game mechanics?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby econ21 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:16 am

This is not really a matlab question, but if AS applies censure, is this going to cause problems with pulls with CC? If we AS, then the dps CC some of the AS targets, will the censure break the CC? If so, should we let the dps CC pull first and we fire AS after to pick up those not CCd?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Durability » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:36 am

econ21 wrote:This is not really a matlab question, but if AS applies censure, is this going to cause problems with pulls with CC? If we AS, then the dps CC some of the AS targets, will the censure break the CC? If so, should we let the dps CC pull first and we fire AS after to pick up those not CCd?


I'd suspect yes, but you could always just swap while the mobs moonwalk towards you.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Cavalorn » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:45 am

Well done Blizz -.-


Bad news for wogger/survival-builds with extremly low hit/exp and rets who have to attack in front of a mob sometimes due to boss-mechanics.
Do they know something about a ressource called holypower?!?

Turning HoW and AS into "meele-attacks" adds another differnt behavior into our spell-mechanics. Wohooo melee-range-attacks number 2 + 3 besides judgement...if I'm correct, am I?
They won't procc DC:H now, instead of this, you will get seal-proccs and censure applys... which should be more powerfull.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Cema » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:54 am

Long time I didn't post here

The holy power nerf is really a terrible idea.

With no reforging into threat stats not only do we do less HPS than before, but less DPS (where we were already doing less dps than other tanks even with shield slam spam) and most of all our rotation is now completely chaotic

I'm partially doing the theorycraft for the french community on forums and atm I have next to no clue about what to do and what to think
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:03 am

Bad news for WoG threat. According to Jere, WoG was hotfixed to generate no healing threat at some point in patch 4.0.3a. I'd love if someone could test this on a low-level mob somewhere to confirm.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Nazzar » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:34 am

I can confirm that Wog Doesn't make any threat any more. Tested it on High level mobs and low level mobs.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Dwarfadin » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:43 am

Nazzar wrote:I can confirm that Wog Doesn't make any threat any more. Tested it on High level mobs and low level mobs.


This is kind the icing on the cake.
I won't hide i'm nerdraging right now, unannounced stealth-nerfs just piss me off.



I tested the rotation on dummies, and it's plain broken. It's quite common having all our abilities on cooldown.
I suggest that probably we'll have to prioritize AS procs first ( just behind Judgement for mana), something like J>AS>3ShoR>CS>Cons>HW. It seems to be the only way to minimaze blank GC. If so, AS must be glyphed.
Of course it needs testing.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:06 am

Dwarfadin wrote:
Nazzar wrote:I can confirm that Wog Doesn't make any threat any more. Tested it on High level mobs and low level mobs.


This is kind the icing on the cake.
I won't hide i'm nerdraging right now, unannounced stealth-nerfs just piss me off.



I tested the rotation on dummies, and it's plain broken. It's quite common having all our abilities on cooldown.
I suggest that probably we'll have to prioritize AS procs first ( just behind Judgement for mana), something like J>AS>3ShoR>CS>Cons>HW. It seems to be the only way to minimaze blank GC. If so, AS must be glyphed.
Of course it needs testing.


Did you bother to read the updated priority sim calculation on the first page? Nerdraging or not, there's no point spouting crap that's already been calculated as inefficient.

Plus, it should be obvious that the queue you suggested is going to be bad. Your solution to our lower holy power generation is really going to be to drop our HP generator to the bottom of the queue?? Think about that for a second. That only magnifies the problem.

The change to CS cements its position at the top of the queue. Delaying it for anything else (except SotR, of course) is going to be a significant threat nerf, because you're going to create longer periods of no-damage output, more empty GCDs, and reduce holy power generation even further.

Our queue will remain SotR>CS>filler. The only question is exactly what order we want to choose for the filler. It seems right now that J>AS>Cons>HW and AS>J>Cons>HW are roughly equivalent. At high hit/exp, J>AS is likely to win out, at low hit/exp, AS>J is probably a little better.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby lythac » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:21 am

For any empty GCDs are there reasons not to use Divine Plea (cancel aura if WoG) then resume WoG/SotR>CS>filler?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:56 am

lythac wrote:For any empty GCDs are there reasons not to use Divine Plea (cancel aura if WoG) then resume WoG/SotR>CS>filler?

No, presumably not. I'll have to add that to the priority model, I suppose, since it's now relevant.

The queue would basically be SotR>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW>DP.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Malthrax » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:51 am

lythac wrote:For any empty GCDs are there reasons not to use Divine Plea (cancel aura if WoG) then resume WoG/SotR>CS>filler?

Well, that covers ONE empty global every two minutes.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Dwarfadin » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:32 am

I beg your pardon Theck, my suggestion was kind of improvised. The whole point was: prioritizing Avenger's Shield would not be completely a bad idea.

As the first page says, in fact, glyphed AS does similar damage to ShoR, also due to the fact it can't be dodged/parried. It's not total bullshit to prioritize it if low on hit/expertise.

If you take in exam rotations #1 and #6 they're totally similar.
However #6 is AS>ShoR>CS>J>etc so it puts J (=mana regen) on the lower end, there may be trouble in mana management.

I would like to test it live as it seems to be more suited for pull/burst aggro: AS doesn't need any Holy Power, any HoPo generator random misses, it's just ready for use and can't be parried.
I had several issues these days of 2-3 ShoR misses/parries in a row during the pull, so now I'm just not confident about it.

About my whining: I guess everyone of you has thought "why the hell they had PTR for up a month if they suddenly hotfixes on the release day with no notice at all?" :)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:10 pm

Dwarfadin wrote:If you take in exam rotations #1 and #6 they're totally similar.
However #6 is AS>ShoR>CS>J>etc so it puts J (=mana regen) on the lower end, there may be trouble in mana management.

That's not a fair comparsion. #1 is SotR>CS>J>AS>HW, #6 is AS>SotR>CS>J>Cons>HW. #1 will necessarily be worse, because it makes no attempt to utilize a high-damage spell (Cons) even though we have empty GCDs in which to cast it.

The relevant comparison would be #3, SotR>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW. And you can see that #3 outperforms #6 by a fair margin.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:13 am

Just a reminder that this is not the thread for discussing how your threat is post-patch. If your question/comment doesn't have direct relevance to the MATLAB code, it doesn't belong here. I've moved a few posts over to the CS/HotR thread that were off-topic.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Arees » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:06 am

Hotfix for HotR went in today to make it so that the secondary holy nova damage will no longer miss as long as the primary target is hit.

The area-of-effect attack of Hammer of the Righteous no longer has a chance to miss secondary targets when the primary attack hits the paladin's target. If the primary attack of Hammer of the Righteous fails to hit the target due to miss/dodge/parry/block, no enemies will be affected by the area-of-effect attack. Rogues who are under Cloak of Shadows, however, are able to resist this damage.


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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:11 am

Yup. I've already updated my personal build. I should have an update for the rotation simulations this afternoon.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:11 pm

Rotation sim updated for 4.0.6a.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby kurtizzle » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:20 am

Question for Theck,

I've been looking into enchants and it was quoted on here somewhere (really sorry) that avoidence/hp gains from the weapon enchants seem to go as follows:

Wind Walk > Blade Ward > Mending > others ???

(I'm looking on Eliteist Jerks for the source)

I tank with Mending, but I'm off to farm the sexy 2.8 speed Cookies Tenderiser, when I get it again (DE so many times) I'd like to get a Blade Ward on it.

Can you possibly find time, to code in the DPS conponent of Blade Ward and have the graph updated so we can weigh up it's DPS/Avoidence against things like Hurricane etc.

PS: I like different weapons for different jobs, with differen't enchants to enforce those jobs.

I'd like to save WW for a Raid Tank drop.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:56 am

Yes, this is something I've been planning on doing for the next round of enchanting sims. We already have old code to handle Blade Ward, it's just a matter of confirming that the proc rate has not changed appreciably.

If you could find the link to the EJ discussion, it would be very helpful.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Gab » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:38 pm

Might not be the best place for this question or it might have been answered already, so I apologize if either are the case. I have tried to search the forums but couldn't find anything.

Grand Crusader reads: "When your Crusader Strike or Hammer of the Righteous deal damage to your primary target, they have 10/20% chance of refreshing the cooldown on your next Avenger's Shield."

So does HotR have two chances to proc GC? One from the physical portion and one from the holy portion? Or is it just the physical portion that can proc GC?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:38 pm

Gab wrote:So does HotR have two chances to proc GC? One from the physical portion and one from the holy portion? Or is it just the physical portion that can proc GC?

I think it's just the physical portion. I'll have to look at some logs to confirm, but I'm fairly certain it is given the way the ability works. If it were 20% chance on both phys and holy, then in a log you should see a proc rate closer to 36% rather than 20%.
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