Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Dwarfadin » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:16 am

Moved and edited in the right thread http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p641759
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:15 am

Dwarfadin wrote:The odd is, if the physical part doesn't hit, there's no report at all on logs, no message at all. The only trace left is that the Holy Power charge is gained nevertheless.

The same behaviour was in place on December 2nd (64 HotR entries, 131 HoPow), we just failed to notice it. Thanks for the report. If you happen to carry out more tests, please use the "Call to Arms" thread, providing the WoL parse(s).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Dwarfadin » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:37 am

tlitp wrote:
Dwarfadin wrote:The odd is, if the physical part doesn't hit, there's no report at all on logs, no message at all. The only trace left is that the Holy Power charge is gained nevertheless.

The same behaviour was in place on December 2nd (64 HotR entries, 131 HoPow), we just failed to notice it. Thanks for the report. If you happen to carry out more tests, please use the "Call to Arms" thread, providing the WoL parse(s).


I'll run the same test again with WoL (as soon as I learn to use it) and move the post as soon as I can.
Sorry for that.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:45 am

Check out the "WoL how-to" section of the CtA thread. If you still have problems with WoL, just provide the raw CL to Theck and he'll upload it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:03 pm

Dwarfadin wrote:This is what I actually found out:

- Hammer of the Righteous can miss, dodge, parry
- If the physical portion misses, is dodged or parried, no holy nova damage is applied.
- Holy nova damage can separately miss (spell hit) upon a physical hit.

The odd is, if the physical part doesn't hit, there's no report at all on logs, no message at all. The only trace left is that the Holy Power charge is gained nevertheless.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We were already aware of the behavior of the nova component, but the lack of combat log entry led us astray on the physical component. If you're interested in helping more with the mechanics testing, I'll echo tlitp's suggestion that you check out the Call to Arms thread. We can always use more smart testers.

To address some of your other concerns:
Dwarfadin wrote:During the test i've noticed an oddity about the Vindication behaviour.

- Both phys. and Holy components proc Vindication. They separately miss.
- Holy nova applies Vindications on every target: the tooltip says only primary targets.

Yup, this is the known behavior. It was changed in beta, but the tooltip was never updated to match the new behavior.

Dwarfadin wrote:- The double roll for the debuff application on your primary target can result:

Refreshed, Refreshed
Miss, Refreshed
Miss, Miss
Refreshed {only one line}
http://img838.imageshack.us/i/log1g.png/

There exists no "Refreshed, Miss" neither stand-alone "Miss".
Not really sure what the meaning is. They are not connected to Holy nova misses. I don't even think we should care about it.

No idea, but I agree with your conclusion.

Dwarfadin wrote:Other notices:

Recount reports that Censure DoT can be parried and dodged. This might refer to the application though. It needs further investigation.

The behavior of Censure has already been investigated, though for the life of me I can't find the post where we tested it. This is the application being parried or dodged; the DoT itself cannot miss.


Dwarfadin wrote:
Theckhd wrote:Judgement, Exorcism, and Hammer of Wrath don't poc seals on live. And nothing but auto-attacks stack Censure on live.

Judgement DOES proc the seal on live (like CS, doesn't refresh the DoT), it can be easily observed.

Judgement doesn't proc seals at all, in fact. The application of the Judgements of the Just debuff is what triggers SoT/SoR. This has already been tested carefully in the Call to Arms thread. If tested with 0/2 in JotJ, Judgement doesn't proc any seals.

It's noteworthy that in the build on the PTR, both Judgement and JotJ applications proc seals as of the latest testing due to the Retribution changes (all single-target attacks now stack Censure and proc seals). It's not clear if these seal double-procs will make it through to live, or whether they'll finally catch on and remove the seal proc from JotJ to compensate.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Dwarfadin » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:47 pm

Thank you Theck for your attention.
Sorry if I brought on topics already discussed. I was unaware of the JotJ proc'ing Seal of Truth, that's a nice discovery for me.

I've already applied maintankadin guild on Word of Logs, i'm waiting for your confirmation for uploading.
Tonight I'll run an extended test (6+ hours) to get better numbers about HotR.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:09 pm

Dwarfadin wrote:Thank you Theck for your attention.
Sorry if I brought on topics already discussed. I was unaware of the JotJ proc'ing Seal of Truth, that's a nice discovery for me.

I've already applied maintankadin guild on Word of Logs, i'm waiting for your confirmation for uploading.
Tonight I'll run an extended test (6+ hours) to get better numbers about HotR.


It shouldn't take anywhere near 6 hours; check the Call to Arms thread, tlitp has requested a parse of 30 HotRs.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:50 am

I'm working on the 4.0.6 code, and I noticed that there's a slight discrepancy between the mmo-champion database, the wowhead database, and the armory for spellpower weapons.

Example:
MMO: Twilight's Hammer
Speed 1.70
550 - 1022 Damage
(462.4 damage per second)
+219 Stamina
+146 Intellect
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 97.
Equip: Improves haste rating by 97.
Equip: Increases spell power by 1954.

WH: Twilight's Hammer
Speed 1.70
42 - 80 Damage
(35.9 damage per second)
+219 Stamina
+146 Intellect
Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 97.
Equip: Increases your haste rating by 97.
Equip: Increases spell power by 1954.

WA: Twilight's Hammer
Speed 2.30
550 - 1022 Damage
(341.7 damage per second)
+219 Stamina
+146 Intellect
Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 97.
Equip: Increases spell power by 1954.
Equip: Increases your haste rating by 97.

This discrepancy appears for quite a few other spellpower weapons as well. If someone could do a quick in-game check to see which one of the three is accurate, I'd appreciate it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby cappytoi » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:10 am

Hi theck,

On live (4.0.3), in game tooltip shows that the weapon dmg is 1-179 and dps is 53.1 and the weapon speed is 1.70. I don't have PTR client so I can't tell that one sadly. Hope this helps.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:22 am

They've eliminated the weapon damage penalty of SP-based weapons during the 4.0.6 PTR dev builds. Most of MMOC's entries should be already updated.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Charise » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:57 pm

I know you don't support it but I tried firing matlabadin through octave recently.

It appears that strread() is not implemented in octave, and the random strread.m I found laying around the internet didn't work on my install (which isn't necessarily saying much). (I am running octave over SSH and and I didn't bother installing any of the dependencies to do plotting so I couldn't try that but everything else seems fine.)

However, it also appears that strread is being deprecated in matlab proper in favor of textscan (?). I don't have matlab myself, but from what I saw this is a recent change.

A simple 'grep -c' shows about 50 lines on which it appears. I haven't looked to see if they are interchangeable yet--but I doubt it, so it would probably be non-trivial to make the switch.



Just something to consider putting on a todo list to future proof the code and improve interoperability.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:21 pm

I'm not opposed to supporting Octave wherever possible, but I simply don't have the time to double-check the code in several different environments. If you're interested in testing it in Octave and suggesting changes that will improve compatibility, I'll try and incorporate them.

I'll try and take a look at textsan/strread once I get everything up to date for 4.0.6.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:28 pm

Single-target rotation simulations have been updated, with the following caveat:

The bugged implementation of CS/HotR in this patch has thrown a wrench in the works. The analytical models have all been built around guaranteed holy power generation on CS, and a cycle time of (9+1.5*x) seconds, where x is the average number of GCDs it takes to succeed with SotR. Now, our cycle time becomes more complicated, as a missed CS incurs an added 3 seconds and messes with the fillers. I won't get time to work out new analytical results for a few days at least, and I'm hesitating to do so in the hope that this is confirmed as a bug and gets squashed fairly quickly.

What this means for now is that you're only getting a limited update today. The analytical forms will take a bit of work, but the priority sims are surprisingly robust. It took only two lines of code to "implement" the bug. As such, I can update this post immediately to give everyone some insight on how the bug affects us. If the bug is fixed, I'll update again accordingly. I have a short-term workaround planned in case the bug is actually "working as intended" and the analytical models prove to become more difficult than expected, but I'm not going to roll that out just yet.

Also note that I'm working with an old version of ability_model.m that doesn't have the CS buff included (it's still 115% in these simulations). I didn't notice that until after I generated the data, but I'll try and update it again tonight to include the extra 20%.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Redleg » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:35 pm

Edit: Oops, I was posting this here to confirm for you in case you were still waiting to see if it was indeed a nerf. After I posted I realized you probably already have seen this post by zarhym now.

Theck, Zarhym posted about the nerf in the damage dealing forums, once again confirming it.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2046735520#12

This was a bug. A note for this has been added under the Paladin Bug Fixes section here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2166872

Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Marilee » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:42 pm

Redleg wrote:Edit: Oops, I was posting this here to confirm for you in case you were still waiting to see if it was indeed a nerf. After I posted I realized you probably already have seen this post by zarhym now.

Theck, Zarhym posted about the nerf in the damage dealing forums, once again confirming it.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2046735520#12

This was a bug. A note for this has been added under the Paladin Bug Fixes section here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2166872

Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.


That's a silly comparison. It'd be more like if they made it so warriors had several seconds added to the cooldown of Shield Slam every time a Devastate missed/parried/dodged. Blah.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:57 pm

Marilee wrote:That's a silly comparison. It'd be more like if they made it so warriors had several seconds added to the cooldown of Shield Slam every time a Devastate missed/parried/dodged. Blah.

There are a lot of things wrong with that comparison, so much so that if it weren't a blue poster that I'd write it off as a troll. It has nothing to do with "failing" or missing attacks. It's about the resource generation model for the class.

But then again, i guess Zarhym is a CM, not a game designer. WTB Ghostcrawler back.

I'm going to need to adjust the analytical models considerably now. As a brief brainstorming session, which is all I have the energy for at the moment, this reduces our rotation to:

CS-X-

X is filled by SotR>J>AS>Cons>HW. Thus, what matters now is not a 9-second cycle, but a 3-second block. We need to figure out the following things:
  • mean number of CS casts to gain 3 holy power as a function of hit/exp
  • chance of J being available (easy, for a 3-second cycle it's always 1 every 9 seconds, or 1 out of every 3 cycles)
  • chance of AS being available (we've already solved this problem for the 9-second rot, this is a minor variation)
  • chance of Cons being available, given the interference effects of J and AS
  • chance of HW being available, given the interference effects of J, AS, Cons, HW

This should allow us to calculate weighting factors for the X slot for each ability, which we can double-check against the priority simulation.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Fetzie » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:38 pm

When browsing the us forum I saw this thread

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2046564949

apparently Avenger's Shield is stacking Censure on the targets it lands on. There is a WoL link in the thread and a youtube link which supposedly confirm this.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:57 pm

Pyrea wrote:When browsing the us forum I saw this thread

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2046564949

apparently Avenger's Shield is stacking Censure on the targets it lands on. There is a WoL link in the thread and a youtube link which supposedly confirm this.



will it do initial application? or just refresh/restack ?


I'm in the middle of a raid so can't really test it at a dummy atm
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Durability » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:44 pm

Pyrea wrote:When browsing the us forum I saw this thread

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2046564949

apparently Avenger's Shield is stacking Censure on the targets it lands on. There is a WoL link in the thread and a youtube link which supposedly confirm this.


I can confirm this behavior. It triggers Seal of Truth damage as well at 5 stacks.

EDIT: Between that and it no longer doing OP things with DC:H, perhaps AS and HOW are classed as melee attacks now for the purposes of game mechanics?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby econ21 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:16 am

This is not really a matlab question, but if AS applies censure, is this going to cause problems with pulls with CC? If we AS, then the dps CC some of the AS targets, will the censure break the CC? If so, should we let the dps CC pull first and we fire AS after to pick up those not CCd?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Durability » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:36 am

econ21 wrote:This is not really a matlab question, but if AS applies censure, is this going to cause problems with pulls with CC? If we AS, then the dps CC some of the AS targets, will the censure break the CC? If so, should we let the dps CC pull first and we fire AS after to pick up those not CCd?


I'd suspect yes, but you could always just swap while the mobs moonwalk towards you.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Cavalorn » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:45 am

Well done Blizz -.-


Bad news for wogger/survival-builds with extremly low hit/exp and rets who have to attack in front of a mob sometimes due to boss-mechanics.
Do they know something about a ressource called holypower?!?

Turning HoW and AS into "meele-attacks" adds another differnt behavior into our spell-mechanics. Wohooo melee-range-attacks number 2 + 3 besides judgement...if I'm correct, am I?
They won't procc DC:H now, instead of this, you will get seal-proccs and censure applys... which should be more powerfull.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Cema » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:54 am

Long time I didn't post here

The holy power nerf is really a terrible idea.

With no reforging into threat stats not only do we do less HPS than before, but less DPS (where we were already doing less dps than other tanks even with shield slam spam) and most of all our rotation is now completely chaotic

I'm partially doing the theorycraft for the french community on forums and atm I have next to no clue about what to do and what to think
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:03 am

Bad news for WoG threat. According to Jere, WoG was hotfixed to generate no healing threat at some point in patch 4.0.3a. I'd love if someone could test this on a low-level mob somewhere to confirm.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Nazzar » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:34 am

I can confirm that Wog Doesn't make any threat any more. Tested it on High level mobs and low level mobs.
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