Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:23 am

AriKT wrote:Uhhh, the Ret Hotfix makes Hammer of Wrath hit HARD, even for Prot. Its hitting harder than my ShoR on a dummy.

Any info on what exactly they changed? Or a few parses?
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby lorddening » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:27 am

theckhd wrote:I apologize that it's taking so long, but I got very little done @ work earlier in the week as a result of hammering out all of the data that's already posted. Until someone's willing to pay me to theorycraft, I can't really afford to keep neglecting my work.


I would venture that there is a direct correlation between 4.0 dropping and nation-wide work productivity. I am comforted by the fact that I am not the only one finding myself mid day on thursday, to still have a whole weeks worth of work due tommorrow.
lorddening
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:58 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciTlyBJg2W0

It is hitting hardddd for ret. I dunno about prot yet I go into a heroic and see
towelliee
 
Posts: 694
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:09 am

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby lorddening » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:14 pm

lorddening wrote:
alsache wrote:Blizz has been buffing / hotfixing Rets. I imagine they would do it in a way that also wouldn't buff prot but you never know.


It is possible that this may involve buffing crusader strike. If it is their intention that crusader strike represent our primary single target tool for generating holy power Blizz buffing crusader strike would be killing two birds with one stone.

On an unrelated note, ret DPS took it hard. As a tank in ICC last night I was outdpsing both of our ret pallies. My SOR hit for as high as 40k at times. It was pretty sweet.


Looks like they did buff Crusader Strike. It was their only real option. I would be surprised if decided to nerf our AOE abilities even further.
lorddening
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:25 pm

towelliee
 
Posts: 694
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:09 am

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:26 pm

lorddening wrote:Looks like they did buff Crusader Strike. It was their only real option. I would be surprised if decided to nerf our AOE abilities even further.


Link? Data? Seriously folks, this thread is not just for idle speculation. If you have information, give it to me so I can fix the model!
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby lorddening » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:28 pm

theckhd wrote:
lorddening wrote:Looks like they did buff Crusader Strike. It was their only real option. I would be surprised if decided to nerf our AOE abilities even further.


Link? Data? Seriously folks, this thread is not just for idle speculation. If you have information, give it to me so I can fix the model!


Just basing it off the linked video above, and what I saw of Ret DPS from my raid last night. You are correct though, that hard data will be necessary to confirm this, and until then it is just speculation.
lorddening
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:32 pm


That could be because you linked the same log twice. :P

However, I found the correct second log: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kp2q8 ... details/0/

Code: Select all
Ability      Log1    Log2
HotR        233.2   243.4
HaNova     1314.3  1305.9
Melee       777.0   783.8


There's only a 4-5% increase in the melee portion and a 1% reduction in the Nova portion, both are probably within the noise levels for <20 samples. It seems like Crusade isn't affecting either portion if we believe this log.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:34 pm

theckhd wrote:
AriKT wrote:Uhhh, the Ret Hotfix makes Hammer of Wrath hit HARD, even for Prot. Its hitting harder than my ShoR on a dummy.

Any info on what exactly they changed? Or a few parses?


I'll see if I can run some numbers, but it was hitting for over 6K with 3K AP.

Edit: Bleh, not enough people beating on the dummy to keep it under 100% health.
Last edited by AriKT on Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AriKT
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:24 pm

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:36 pm

theckhd wrote:
lorddening wrote:Looks like they did buff Crusader Strike. It was their only real option. I would be surprised if decided to nerf our AOE abilities even further.


Link? Data? Seriously folks, this thread is not just for idle speculation. If you have information, give it to me so I can fix the model!


Weapon Speed 2.60
DPS 510.5
AP - 3638
SP - 1116

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ez97e ... details/0/

Crusader strike Damage with 31/5 spec
towelliee
 
Posts: 694
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:09 am

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby alsache » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:59 pm

theckhd wrote:
lorddening wrote:Looks like they did buff Crusader Strike. It was their only real option. I would be surprised if decided to nerf our AOE abilities even further.


Link? Data? Seriously folks, this thread is not just for idle speculation. If you have information, give it to me so I can fix the model!


Blizzard has not provided details...

ghostcralwer wrote:We made many changes yesterday. A lot of these were bug fixes, and many bug fixes will affect damage one way or the other. So just because you don't see a specific change referenced below, doesn't mean it didn't change.

With that said, here are the specific changes we made in reference to my previous post:

1) We buffed the base points and coefficients of many warrior dps abilities. We didn't do as much to tanking abilities.

We buffed the base points and coefficients of many Ret abilities.

We buffed the base points and coefficients of many Feral cat abilities.

2) We lowered the base points and coefficients of many mage abilities, but lowered Fire more than the other two.

3) We nerfed Shadow Word: Death, but it is possible we didn't nerf it enough. It should not be Shadow's biggest spell.

4) We returned Searing Pain's damage to its 3.3.5 levels.

5) We increased the benefit of resilience by 50% for players level 80 and below. The tooltips will probably not reflect this change.

We don't have any other changes to announce at this time. I am reluctant to mention additional classes or specs that we are looking at currently for fear of instilling excitement or panic.


http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27187856 ... t-13-2010/

What tests do you need run? I can try to get a parse tonight to help out.
Image
alsache
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:15 am

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby alsache » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:04 pm

In EJ's ret thread

Testing from today:

TV: 3 stack is 290%. 1 and 2 stack remain the same.
Judge is .24 AP and .37 SP, multiplied by 1.5 for stacks.
Exo: .23 AP, 2075 base
HoW: .42 AP, .42 SP, 4330 base !
HW: .76 SP, 2095 base
Censure: .165 AP, .068 SP


Judgement is buffed 50%
Censure is buffed 33%
Exorcism's base amount is buffed
Holy Wrath's SP contribution is doubled
TV buffed 30%
HoW buffed 230% !


We see they can make different abilities for different trees with the 3.0 sec CD for prot only.. wonder if they'd make two different versions of judgement/censure/HW..?
Last edited by alsache on Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
alsache
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:15 am

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:04 pm

theckhd wrote:Link? Data? Seriously folks, this thread is not just for idle speculation.

We should wait a few more days, then another round of testing frenzy can commence. Also, slack much ? :P
User avatar
tlitp
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:17 pm

Just some quick Hammer of Wrath numbers. Will get a larger data set later when more people are around and the dummy is under 20% health.
AP(SP) - Average non crit damage.

3511(1151) - 7155
3192(1053) - 6934
3052(947) - 6242
610(210) - 5024

From what it looks like, they've at least tripled the base and coefficients. But, need to get more data.
AriKT
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:24 pm

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:22 pm

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zabur68kn0ukkw4m/details/0/

Hammer of Wrath same stats as before seems higher

Also go to Argent Dawn dummy it has 10k HP and you can hammer of wrath your heart out
Last edited by towelliee on Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
towelliee
 
Posts: 694
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:09 am

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:22 pm

AriKT wrote:Last Word no T10 2PC 4076 AP Level 80 Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/voqz ... details/9/

Last Word with T10 2PC 4143 AP Level 80 Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t8j5 ... etails/11/


Code: Select all
Ability    Log1     Log2
HotR      282.7    320.9
HaNova   1387.5   1391.0
ShoR     5387.0   5363.4


HotR up by about 13.5%. The AP difference should only cause an increase of about 2 damage on average, which drops the adjusted increase to around 12.6%. We'd expect it to be hitting for around 340 with the 20% glyph active, but this could just be the small sample sizes working against us.

HammerNova sees no significant change, but 67 more AP should net an average increase of 16 damage if the 0.187 coefficient is correct. We're not seeing that at all, but the damage range on Nova makes it tough to get decent statistics from small samples. In any event, we'd expect to see Nova damage go up by 275 or so if the 20% tier bonus were affecting it.


Also just for including CS:

Last Word 277 4134 AP Boss Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o1mj ... etails/17/

Gutbuster 264 3892 AP Boss Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xrii ... etails/25/


Notice the HotR AoE is nearly the same average with or without the T10 2PC. However, the HotR Weapon Damage is about 13% higher. 160%/140% = 114.28%.


Where do you get 160 and 140 from in that calculation? The formula for HotR damage should just be

0.3*player.wdamage*mdf.phdmg*mdf.Crus*mdf.t10x2*mdf.glyphHotR

Where player.wdamage is the damage you read off of your paper doll, mdf.phdmg is 0.6103 for a lvl 80 target, mdf.Crus is 1 or 1.3 depending on whether it's specced (or active), mdf.t10x2 is 1 or 1.2 (again, depending on whether it applies or not), and similarly for the glyph.

Everything should be multiplicative, unless things have significantly changed from PTR. So if you glyph/talent/etc for 20% more damage, you should see a 20% increase from the unglyphed numbers.

HotR is as good or better than CS in these parses unless using a 2.6 DPS Weapon, and even then its close. But, if the scaling is lower on HotR due to changes this won't be true with Vengeance AP up.

What should the average damage be from the PTR model? If i'm doing the math right its 2350 for HotR AoE with those stats and Crusade, Glyph, and T10 2PC. Which is pretty far off from the 1350ish I was seeing.


In the 4134 AP gear set with 277 Last Word, here's what it gives us for a level 80 dummy:
Code: Select all
Skill  Model Parse   Diff   %Diff
CS      1766  1689    -77    -4
HotR     180   321    141    78
HaNova  1426  1391    -35    -2
Melee    600   670     70    12


The melee may just be off because we only have 1 sample, but the significant difference in HotR damage is confusing. I'm using 0/3 Crusade for HotR and HaNova based on towellie's data, but 3/3 Crusade.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby steadypal » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:27 pm

so HoW got buffed 230%? seems like a must in our late rotation, what should we skip out :P it hits HARD btw

and HW sp coefficient got dbld' yay...



EJ mentioned judges got 50% buff, but didnt read anything about CS though...
steadypal
 
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:37 pm

My HotR tests were on a level 80 dummy, not a Boss. That probably where the diff is coming from. I could be wrong, but I think the multipliers are additive instead of multiplicative, which is where I get the 140 and 160 numbers. My numbers just come out closer using additive, but relatively small sample sets and such can cause it to just look that way to me. I'll go with multiplicative for my formulas for now.

I also angled myself not to melee when getting the HotR and CS data. Guess a swing squeaked in.
AriKT
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:24 pm

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby kristoferpally » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:36 pm

I tried but couldnt find anything on how good a tank weapon last word is. Can someone post a link to a related thread please or just tell me :D

currently using normal LK 25 weapon
kristoferpally
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:34 pm

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:49 pm

AriKT wrote:My HotR tests were on a level 80 dummy, not a Boss. That probably where the diff is coming from. I could be wrong, but I think the multipliers are additive instead of multiplicative, which is where I get the 140 and 160 numbers. My numbers just come out closer using additive, but relatively small sample sets and such can cause it to just look that way to me. I'll go with multiplicative for my formulas for now.

I also angled myself not to melee when getting the HotR and CS data. Guess a swing squeaked in.


There's no reason not to melee for these tests, it gives us an additional data point that can be useful in figuring out discrepancies.

The model was taking into account the fact that it was an 80 dummy rather than a boss dummy.

I highly doubt that the "multipliers" are additive, and not just because we call them "multipliers." Nearly every other talent, glyph, and so forth in the game is multiplicative, including all of our abilities. It would be very uncharacteristic for HotR to work additively. What's more likely is that it was changed somehow.

Even if they did, I'm still not sure where you get those values. 30% base damage, 30% from Crusade, 20% from T10 bonus, 20% from glyph. At best that's 100% weapon damage if you add them, not 140 or 160.

My current guess is that it's now a weapon-normalized attack. That would increase the AP contribution and might explain the discrepancy. I haven't had time to check the numbers though to see if they support this hypothesis though.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Digren » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:51 pm

kristoferpally wrote:I tried but couldnt find anything on how good a tank weapon last word is. Can someone post a link to a related thread please or just tell me :D

currently using normal LK 25 weapon

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic

Both are pre-4.0 discussions. I haven't seen anything about it in 4.0 (but don't think it would have changed much).
User avatar
Digren
Moderator
 
Posts: 1401
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:41 pm

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Darielle » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:32 pm

I'm not sure if a version of the sim already does this (and I may be late to this convo and it already happened), but anyway, random question:

When it's going through the CS-J-CS-X-CS-ShoR thing, does it try in one of the cycles to sub in a GC proc over J and invert to a CS-X-CS-J-CS-ShoR until the next GC proc (which would then have to happen on the CS after the X I guess)?

Net resulting in delaying an occasional Judgment and pushing HW back a couple of cycles, but getting AS's in over the two without delaying the ShoR at the cost of an occasional SD proc (the first case retains the SD chance, the second case pushes the J to the next cycle so it doesn't), but since you're not hitting AS on cooldown, you don't open up gaps like with a normal AS>J
Darielle
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Marxalot » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:20 pm

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fsuk ... details/6/

This is my first log file ever, and I haven't figured out how to split it, but basically this is a log of HotR attacks. In my no-crusader spec, I attacked the dummy until I ran oom, then mana'd up, switched specs to the with-crusader spec and attacked HotRs until I went oom again. As you can clearly see, despite being a short log, there is definitely NOT a 30% increase in damage with Crusade.

I was naked except for Titanguard weapon (http://www.wowhead.com/item=45110).
My spec was http://wowtal.com/#k=-eJa_hW.a67.paladin. with only major and minor glyphs (none that matter).
User avatar
Marxalot
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:58 pm

it's easy... logout of the game, go to your log folder, rename your log file, log back in, start new log. I did that for every test case I did for Theck
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9349
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:42 pm

theckhd wrote:
AriKT wrote:My HotR tests were on a level 80 dummy, not a Boss. That probably where the diff is coming from. I could be wrong, but I think the multipliers are additive instead of multiplicative, which is where I get the 140 and 160 numbers. My numbers just come out closer using additive, but relatively small sample sets and such can cause it to just look that way to me. I'll go with multiplicative for my formulas for now.

I also angled myself not to melee when getting the HotR and CS data. Guess a swing squeaked in.


There's no reason not to melee for these tests, it gives us an additional data point that can be useful in figuring out discrepancies.

The model was taking into account the fact that it was an 80 dummy rather than a boss dummy.

I highly doubt that the "multipliers" are additive, and not just because we call them "multipliers." Nearly every other talent, glyph, and so forth in the game is multiplicative, including all of our abilities. It would be very uncharacteristic for HotR to work additively. What's more likely is that it was changed somehow.

Even if they did, I'm still not sure where you get those values. 30% base damage, 30% from Crusade, 20% from T10 bonus, 20% from glyph. At best that's 100% weapon damage if you add them, not 140 or 160.

My current guess is that it's now a weapon-normalized attack. That would increase the AP contribution and might explain the discrepancy. I haven't had time to check the numbers though to see if they support this hypothesis though.


30% * (Crusade + Glyph) = 30% * 140% (if additive)
30% * (Crusade + Glyph + T10) = 30% * 160% (if additive)

The 30% drop out when you get a ratio of the two.
AriKT
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:24 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest