Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:50 am

The ret thread(s) on EJ were reporting much higher Hammer of Wrath numbers following hotfixes in the last 24 hours, and I was curious to see if this applies to prot as well. Not exactly the most scientific test, but on Thrym (so level 80):

With ~4.5k AP, 1228 SP, it was hitting for about 7k normal, 14k crit. Crusader Strike was hitting for about 2k normal, Judgement of truth with 5 stack about 2.8k, 3 HP ShoR 5.7k/crit 11.4k.

Spec was 33/3 with all relevant dps talents in prot and 3 in crusade, using SotR glyph but not Judgement.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Awyndel » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:36 am

Eagerly awaiting those weapon comparisons and a verdict on hotr/cs :D .

Any thoughts on the best dps food/flask/potions? Looking at the stat comparisons it seems like AP flask, str food. And the crit/sp potion might come up slightly above the haste one. I could be wrong.

When I look at ability damage consecration and HoW come above HW. Why aren't we casting them in the AS/HW slot? Mana I guess, but what about HoW?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Marxalot » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:00 am

theckhd wrote:You need to be more specific. Do you mean that HotR does more in aggregate than CS, or do you mean the average damage of a non-crit is lower, or something else? HotR's AoE component shouldn't be able to be dodged or parried, but its melee component should be, and if the melee component doesn't connect the AoE doesn't fire. Or at least, that's what we observed on PTR.


In my test, I stood in front of the dummy and did nothing but HotR for 80 swings and nothing but CS for 80 swings. The melee portion of HotR was never dodged or parried, but did miss (which was odd because I was over hit capped). Occasionally, the combat log only had 1 message for the melee portion or 1 message for the holy portion, but no reason why the other wasn't there (dodged, resisted, etc). CS, however, was clearly dodged about 10% and parried about 10%. To answer the other part of the question, CS hits harder than HotR, but HotR has more total damage because of the loss of CSs from mitigation. I imagine that this is a function of my gear level, though. If I had higher expertise and a weapon with more average damage, CS would probably be the clear winner since it scales better with weapon damage, though HotR may scale better with AP and SP (I'm not sure what the function is for calculating the spell portion of HotR or if there even is one).

What clued me in to the crusade bug was when I went from 0/32/3 spec to 3/32/0, my HotR did the same avg and total damage, which was really surprising. So I respecced 0/11/0 just to get HotR and it was still the same avg and total damage.

When I did the tests, I took some screenshots of recount, but I'm not at home, so I'll get some real logs later if someone else hasn't tested this again by the time I get off work.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Marxalot » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:03 am

Awyndel wrote:Eagerly awaiting those weapon comparisons and a verdict on hotr/cs :D .


For me, HotR is the clear winner by almost 20% damage, even on a single target, plus if Crusade were working correctly and giving HotR an extra 30% damage, it would put HotR as the hands down clear winner for my gear. You should probably just check this out now using a target dummy doing nothing but CS and HotR and checking the total damage over time.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:21 am

I did a bunch of bosses in 25 HM ICC last night wearing full DPS gear and a 277 Bloodvenom Blade.

For some of the bosses I used Crusader Strike exclusively and for others I used Hammer of the Righteous exclusively. Crusader Strike was the apparent winner. This was with a slow weapon, a very high crit chance, and Expertise hard capped. I know that doesn't tell us how it will be in real tank gear, but Crusader Strike was ending up at 14-15% of my damage compared to HotR at 11% or so.

It's difficult to compare boss fights though, since what happens with Vengeance can vary so much between them, but it did seem like Crusader Strike was doing better (especially with the higher crit).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:25 am

Interesting, I neglected to test if Crusade worked. I tested T10 2PC only, and suspected that the Glyph didn't work. Its possible that its the modifiers that are broken and the coefficient could truely be .187. If the 60% bonus damage from Crusade, Glyph, and T10 2PC were broken, then that would be within reason the cause of the difference.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby steadypal » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:31 am

blizz kinda screwed up then if crusade isnt effecting hotr, yet hotr is doing more single target dmg than CS,,,,, all i can say is NOW hotr is gonna get NERFED to the ground baby
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby lorddening » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:34 am

I had similar results. After reading this post I went to the dummies and did a comparison of around 50 HOTR to 50 CS.

I found that the overall damage of CS was significantly higher.

That said I had reforged for exp, so that I was well over cap for Sindy hardmode attempts (Parry haste hurts), although I have since reforged for mastery, and I am happy with the results.

I was also using the 264 Bloodvenom Blade (2.6 speed weapon)

I also await some hard data / theory crafting on this issue.
Last edited by lorddening on Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:45 am

I dunno, I mean, our AoE is not what it used to be...

* Holy Wrath seems to scale only with SP, it's not a snap aoe aggro tool
* Consecration is not the mythical threat glue everyone seemed to make out of it thru the length of wrath. (At one point, it was thru BC, but that's because we had nothing else to use)
* AS can be used as snap aggro tool but the common philosophy is to sit on it in case for an interrupt in most cases -- and in ST situations, it doesn't matter
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:58 am

Rerunning the my numbers for my stats the damage range from my logs yesterday all fall within range of HotR with a 18.7% Coefficient, if Crusade, Glyph, and T10 2PC don't effect the AoE.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby alsache » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:59 am

Blizz has been buffing / hotfixing Rets. I imagine they would do it in a way that also wouldn't buff prot but you never know.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby steadypal » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:02 am

whats hard to test though is i think the problem right now thats making hotr better is vengeance correct? it scales really well, and thats where it passes CS, so cs will outhit on a dummy, but not in a raid setting correct?, but ya, if crusade isnt effecting hotr,,, thats LOL heh
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby lorddening » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:04 am

alsache wrote:Blizz has been buffing / hotfixing Rets. I imagine they would do it in a way that also wouldn't buff prot but you never know.


It is possible that this may involve buffing crusader strike. If it is their intention that crusader strike represent our primary single target tool for generating holy power Blizz buffing crusader strike would be killing two birds with one stone.

On an unrelated note, ret DPS took it hard. As a tank in ICC last night I was outdpsing both of our ret pallies. My SOR hit for as high as 40k at times. It was pretty sweet.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:22 am

Uhhh, the Ret Hotfix makes Hammer of Wrath hit HARD, even for Prot. Its hitting harder than my ShoR on a dummy.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:23 am

steadypal wrote:whats hard to test though is i think the problem right now thats making hotr better is vengeance correct? it scales really well, and thats where it passes CS, so cs will outhit on a dummy, but not in a raid setting correct?, but ya, if crusade isnt effecting hotr,,, thats LOL heh

Well, in the model it is. But if you remove Crusade, T10, and the glyph, then all of the sudden it might not scale as well as CS. It's not just the 18.7% AP coefficient that makes it strong, it's the combination of that with all of these other multipliers.

I'm still pretty busy today, I'm hoping to carve out a little bit of time to look at those parses AriKT provided this afternoon yet. The weapon comparison probably won't happen this afternoon. I might get it done tonight, but I have to take Theck for some test runs so I'm comfortable for ICC hard modes tomorrow night, so we'll see.

I apologize that it's taking so long, but I got very little done @ work earlier in the week as a result of hammering out all of the data that's already posted. Until someone's willing to pay me to theorycraft, I can't really afford to keep neglecting my work.
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