Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby d503 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:23 pm

towelliee wrote:So is the verdict still CS over Hotr for Single Target rotation?


Theck's data points to HotR>CS for single target because of scaling.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:34 pm

At least until CS gets buffed (yay for Single Target rotation) or HotR nerfed (boo for AoE tanking =/)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby d503 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:47 pm

Klaudandus wrote:At least until CS gets buffed (yay for Single Target rotation) or HotR nerfed (boo for AoE tanking =/)


Something tells me Blizzard is just gonna sit on the non-glaring idiosyncrasies until 4.0.3, which I would imagine comes the week before/of Cata release...so we'll probably be dealing with some crap for a while.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby towelliee » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:54 pm

So at what point in Vengeance/AP should HotR overtake CS for dmg?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:00 pm

Keep in mind that this is assuming the HotR formula is right. I'm sure the 0.187 AP coefficient (and 0 SP coefficient) was right on the PTR based on this analysis of this data, along with the data and analysis in several posts here.

However, it's possible that the build that went live changed that. We really ought to re-test all of our abilities just to make sure that there were no undocumented changes.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Korimoor » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:01 pm

So I just want to be sure on a couple of things for boss fights. First, I pop wings and pull with AS. I do NOT need to cast judgement next as the mob is running in because it would interfere with the 939 rotation correct ? If that is so, why is improved judgements constantly in builds ? I know at 85 it will be there because we will continue down the Ret tree, but why now ? It seems like those 2 points could be better put to use in the prot tree.

Also, how long exactly from once my 939 rotation starts do I hit SotR ? 7.5 seconds if everything goes perfectly correct ? The reason I ask is because I read on the main forums that we are basically 30% BEHIND the other tanks in terms of threat for the first 7 or so seconds until our 3HP SotR hits. Then, from there, we are equaled out. It seems like it would ahve to be this way or else we would just be OP in threat.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:05 pm

Korimoor wrote:So I just want to be sure on a couple of things for boss fights. First, I pop wings and pull with AS. I do NOT need to cast judgement next as the mob is running in because it would interfere with the 939 rotation correct ? If that is so, why is improved judgements constantly in builds ? I know at 85 it will be there because we will continue down the Ret tree, but why now ? It seems like those 2 points could be better put to use in the prot tree.

Also, how long exactly from once my 939 rotation starts do I hit SotR ? 7.5 seconds if everything goes perfectly correct ? The reason I ask is because I read on the main forums that we are basically 30% BEHIND the other tanks in terms of threat for the first 7 or so seconds until our 3HP SotR hits. Then, from there, we are equaled out. It seems like it would ahve to be this way or else we would just be OP in threat.


My guess it's because Eye for an Eye is pretty useless for tanking and you want to put points somewhere in order to get to RoL (or PoJ) eventually. Concordantly, Imp Judgement enables you to use your judgement as a ranged/pick up tool and use your shield after CS for a bigger hit.

Of course, at lvl 80, you might get more of putting 2 points in JotP since it's an actual dps increase per point and you don't have enough talent points anyways to get to RoL/PoJ until Cata.

BTW. You only want to hit ShoR until you got your 3 HoPows -- I want to make a PA string so that I get a glow effect when I get 3 HoPows only, should also help if the ShoR misses since the glow should remain until ShoR has been properly consumed.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:35 pm

Last Word no T10 2PC 4076 AP Level 80 Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/voqz ... details/9/

Last Word with T10 2PC 4143 AP Level 80 Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t8j5 ... etails/11/

Also just for including CS:

Last Word 277 4134 AP Boss Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o1mj ... etails/17/

Gutbuster 264 3892 AP Boss Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xrii ... etails/25/


Notice the HotR AoE is nearly the same average with or without the T10 2PC. However, the HotR Weapon Damage is about 13% higher. 160%/140% = 114.28%.

HotR is as good or better than CS in these parses unless using a 2.6 DPS Weapon, and even then its close. But, if the scaling is lower on HotR due to changes this won't be true with Vengeance AP up.

What should the average damage be from the PTR model? If i'm doing the math right its 2350 for HotR AoE with those stats and Crusade, Glyph, and T10 2PC. Which is pretty far off from the 1350ish I was seeing.

Edit: I was just looking at the average hit value. Would also need to consider that CS crits at 200%, and HotR at 150%.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:06 pm

Isn't it the case that Stamina is substantially buffed as a threat stat inside ICC with the 30% buff active? If each point of Stamina is providing 30% more health, then effectively you're getting 30% more AP from that Stamina as well. It seems like that would make Stamina very competitive with Strength assuming you can maintain a full Vengeance stack.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby towelliee » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:25 pm

Is Bloodvenom Blade 277 still a good tank weapon after this patch? Any eta on weapon analysis
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Dazhbog » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:59 pm

Just a quick question on one of the early posts; Theck wrote something like, "This doesn't take into account seal casts, but... there are three per CS, and one for Judgment." What is this referring to?

Thanks!
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:18 am

Theck posted WOL on untouched dummy using 2 weapons

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-23vmlmw0w9ao0yy5/ - using Blood Venom Blade 277

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6voxecz4vt4eankx/ - using Troggbane 271 Heroic

Which is better for tank dps wise?
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Re:

Postby econ21 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:18 am

theckhd wrote: Crit, AP, Agility, and Stamina all give almost as much DPS as strength. For gearing purposes, they're all approximately equal, though Strength has a slight lead.


Wow - that is fascinating. Before 4.01, I had a "dps tank" gear set just for heroics, mixing tank, ret and PVP gear with mainly strength gems and dps enchants. Given what you have found out about stamina now being about equal to strength for us, I am going to mothball that set.

I do regret reforging some of the skyhigh expertise on my "raid threat" gear set though. Going to unpick that.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Marxalot » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:33 am

Just FYI, the talent Crusade isn't increasing Hammer of the Righteous' damage by the 30% it says it should. It's actually not increasing it at all. I submitted a bug report for it already.

Also, maybe it's just my low 226 avg gear level, but HotR does a lot more damage than CS. After some testing, I figured out that it was because CS can be dodged and parried, however HotR can not. The loss from mitigated CS results in a 15-20% loss of damage for CS in my current gear (low expertise).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:28 am

AriKT wrote:Last Word no T10 2PC 4076 AP Level 80 Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/voqz ... details/9/

Last Word with T10 2PC 4143 AP Level 80 Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t8j5 ... etails/11/

Also just for including CS:

Last Word 277 4134 AP Boss Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o1mj ... etails/17/

Gutbuster 264 3892 AP Boss Dummy - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xrii ... etails/25/


Notice the HotR AoE is nearly the same average with or without the T10 2PC. However, the HotR Weapon Damage is about 13% higher. 160%/140% = 114.28%.

HotR is as good or better than CS in these parses unless using a 2.6 DPS Weapon, and even then its close. But, if the scaling is lower on HotR due to changes this won't be true with Vengeance AP up.

What should the average damage be from the PTR model? If i'm doing the math right its 2350 for HotR AoE with those stats and Crusade, Glyph, and T10 2PC. Which is pretty far off from the 1350ish I was seeing.

Edit: I was just looking at the average hit value. Would also need to consider that CS crits at 200%, and HotR at 150%.


Thanks AriKT, I'll take a look at those logs and sych them up with the model later today (I have a busy morning). The crit issue shouldn't be a huge deal given our abysmal crit rate (should be around 3% or so). Remember that if you're parsing a dummy, you're not seeing the Vengeance AP contribution, which can have a major effect.

Kihra wrote:Isn't it the case that Stamina is substantially buffed as a threat stat inside ICC with the 30% buff active? If each point of Stamina is providing 30% more health, then effectively you're getting 30% more AP from that Stamina as well. It seems like that would make Stamina very competitive with Strength assuming you can maintain a full Vengeance stack.


Yes, with the ICC buff and Vengeance active, Stamina becomes as good as or better than Strength. STR is about 14 DPS per 10, STA is 11ish without the buff. I'm guessing at those numbers because I'm in a hurry, but chances are the two are basically equivalent for ICC progression.

towelliee wrote:Is Bloodvenom Blade 277 still a good tank weapon after this patch? Any eta on weapon analysis
towelliee wrote:Theck posted WOL on untouched dummy using 2 weapons

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-23vmlmw0w9ao0yy5/ - using Blood Venom Blade 277

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6voxecz4vt4eankx/ - using Troggbane 271 Heroic

Which is better for tank dps wise?


I don't know yet, I'll look at the logs today when I have time. The weapon analysis is on the list of things to get done, and it shouldn't be difficult to code, but since I have to enter a lot of items into my gear database it could be time consuming. I'm hoping to get that done today yet, but who knows.

Dazhbog wrote:Just a quick question on one of the early posts; Theck wrote something like, "This doesn't take into account seal casts, but... there are three per CS, and one for Judgment." What is this referring to?

That sounds like I was talking about the rotation. In a 9-second period, you cast 3 CS and one Judgement, and thus should expect 4 seal procs. Slightly less because of miss factors, but you get the idea.

Marxalot wrote:Just FYI, the talent Crusade isn't increasing Hammer of the Righteous' damage by the 30% it says it should. It's actually not increasing it at all. I submitted a bug report for it already.



Do you have some parses or a link that demonstrates that? If Crusade doesn't affect HotR, that's a significant effect that I want to correct in the model. If anyone has time to do a little parsing, please check that. Any gear set is fine, just parse about 50 HotR's with and without Crusade in your spec (keep the rest of the spec identical though).

Marxalot wrote:Also, maybe it's just my low 226 avg gear level, but HotR does a lot more damage than CS. After some testing, I figured out that it was because CS can be dodged and parried, however HotR can not. The loss from mitigated CS results in a 15-20% loss of damage for CS in my current gear (low expertise).


You need to be more specific. Do you mean that HotR does more in aggregate than CS, or do you mean the average damage of a non-crit is lower, or something else? HotR's AoE component shouldn't be able to be dodged or parried, but its melee component should be, and if the melee component doesn't connect the AoE doesn't fire. Or at least, that's what we observed on PTR.

The easy way to test this would be to get naked and HotR a heroic dummy from the front. If you don't see any dodges or parries in 50 HotR's, chances are it's not dodge/parry-able.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:50 am

The ret thread(s) on EJ were reporting much higher Hammer of Wrath numbers following hotfixes in the last 24 hours, and I was curious to see if this applies to prot as well. Not exactly the most scientific test, but on Thrym (so level 80):

With ~4.5k AP, 1228 SP, it was hitting for about 7k normal, 14k crit. Crusader Strike was hitting for about 2k normal, Judgement of truth with 5 stack about 2.8k, 3 HP ShoR 5.7k/crit 11.4k.

Spec was 33/3 with all relevant dps talents in prot and 3 in crusade, using SotR glyph but not Judgement.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Awyndel » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:36 am

Eagerly awaiting those weapon comparisons and a verdict on hotr/cs :D .

Any thoughts on the best dps food/flask/potions? Looking at the stat comparisons it seems like AP flask, str food. And the crit/sp potion might come up slightly above the haste one. I could be wrong.

When I look at ability damage consecration and HoW come above HW. Why aren't we casting them in the AS/HW slot? Mana I guess, but what about HoW?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Marxalot » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:00 am

theckhd wrote:You need to be more specific. Do you mean that HotR does more in aggregate than CS, or do you mean the average damage of a non-crit is lower, or something else? HotR's AoE component shouldn't be able to be dodged or parried, but its melee component should be, and if the melee component doesn't connect the AoE doesn't fire. Or at least, that's what we observed on PTR.


In my test, I stood in front of the dummy and did nothing but HotR for 80 swings and nothing but CS for 80 swings. The melee portion of HotR was never dodged or parried, but did miss (which was odd because I was over hit capped). Occasionally, the combat log only had 1 message for the melee portion or 1 message for the holy portion, but no reason why the other wasn't there (dodged, resisted, etc). CS, however, was clearly dodged about 10% and parried about 10%. To answer the other part of the question, CS hits harder than HotR, but HotR has more total damage because of the loss of CSs from mitigation. I imagine that this is a function of my gear level, though. If I had higher expertise and a weapon with more average damage, CS would probably be the clear winner since it scales better with weapon damage, though HotR may scale better with AP and SP (I'm not sure what the function is for calculating the spell portion of HotR or if there even is one).

What clued me in to the crusade bug was when I went from 0/32/3 spec to 3/32/0, my HotR did the same avg and total damage, which was really surprising. So I respecced 0/11/0 just to get HotR and it was still the same avg and total damage.

When I did the tests, I took some screenshots of recount, but I'm not at home, so I'll get some real logs later if someone else hasn't tested this again by the time I get off work.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Marxalot » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:03 am

Awyndel wrote:Eagerly awaiting those weapon comparisons and a verdict on hotr/cs :D .


For me, HotR is the clear winner by almost 20% damage, even on a single target, plus if Crusade were working correctly and giving HotR an extra 30% damage, it would put HotR as the hands down clear winner for my gear. You should probably just check this out now using a target dummy doing nothing but CS and HotR and checking the total damage over time.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:21 am

I did a bunch of bosses in 25 HM ICC last night wearing full DPS gear and a 277 Bloodvenom Blade.

For some of the bosses I used Crusader Strike exclusively and for others I used Hammer of the Righteous exclusively. Crusader Strike was the apparent winner. This was with a slow weapon, a very high crit chance, and Expertise hard capped. I know that doesn't tell us how it will be in real tank gear, but Crusader Strike was ending up at 14-15% of my damage compared to HotR at 11% or so.

It's difficult to compare boss fights though, since what happens with Vengeance can vary so much between them, but it did seem like Crusader Strike was doing better (especially with the higher crit).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:25 am

Interesting, I neglected to test if Crusade worked. I tested T10 2PC only, and suspected that the Glyph didn't work. Its possible that its the modifiers that are broken and the coefficient could truely be .187. If the 60% bonus damage from Crusade, Glyph, and T10 2PC were broken, then that would be within reason the cause of the difference.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby steadypal » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:31 am

blizz kinda screwed up then if crusade isnt effecting hotr, yet hotr is doing more single target dmg than CS,,,,, all i can say is NOW hotr is gonna get NERFED to the ground baby
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby lorddening » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:34 am

I had similar results. After reading this post I went to the dummies and did a comparison of around 50 HOTR to 50 CS.

I found that the overall damage of CS was significantly higher.

That said I had reforged for exp, so that I was well over cap for Sindy hardmode attempts (Parry haste hurts), although I have since reforged for mastery, and I am happy with the results.

I was also using the 264 Bloodvenom Blade (2.6 speed weapon)

I also await some hard data / theory crafting on this issue.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:45 am

I dunno, I mean, our AoE is not what it used to be...

* Holy Wrath seems to scale only with SP, it's not a snap aoe aggro tool
* Consecration is not the mythical threat glue everyone seemed to make out of it thru the length of wrath. (At one point, it was thru BC, but that's because we had nothing else to use)
* AS can be used as snap aggro tool but the common philosophy is to sit on it in case for an interrupt in most cases -- and in ST situations, it doesn't matter
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:58 am

Rerunning the my numbers for my stats the damage range from my logs yesterday all fall within range of HotR with a 18.7% Coefficient, if Crusade, Glyph, and T10 2PC don't effect the AoE.
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