Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:48 pm

I've just updated all of the calculations to use the T13H gear set. This will be the last update for Cataclysm, as we don't expect to get any more new content or gear before 5.0. I've also tagged the final version of the code for 4.3.2. From now on, we'll be focusing our development effort on the 5.0 code.

If anyone is interested in joining the development effort, we can always use more help. I'm already working on the 5.0 code, so people with coding experience can jump in right away if they want to. Once the beta becomes available we'll need lots of testing done, so there will be ways for people who have no programming experience to contribute.

Within a few weeks I'll have a 5.0 thread and a new Call to Arms thread up for discussion of the new code. Feel free to continue using this thread to discuss the current simulations or for feature requests for the 5.0 code.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby econ21 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:40 am

Thanks for all your hard work, theck.

I am curious - where would one find out the formulae for the damage done by our various abilities? e.g. how they depend on weapon dps, strength, spell power etc? I know it would be in your matlab code, but are there external links that give the formulae or is it mainly stuff that you have divined through your own testing?

The reason for asking is that I thinking about Prot PvP and whether it would imply different stat weights from those from your PvE rotation. From a comparison of recount in PvE and PvP, I can see differences in the share of damage from different abilities (primarily CS and ShotR account for 10 percentage points less of damage each in PvP relative to working out on a training dummy) but I don't know what that would imply for stat weights. I am thinking about issues such as whether to use Soul Drinker or a higher tier PvP weapon; whether to gem strength or resilience etc. Your simulations give a good basis for quantifying some effects given a PvE rotation; I'd like to get an insight into how things may differ in a more messy PvP context.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:14 am

econ21 wrote:Prot PvP

Just a reminder that vengeance doesn't build up from player damage anymore. I'm sure you know that, but it does make Prot damage a bit laughable now.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:26 am

Skye1013 wrote:
econ21 wrote:Prot PvP

Just a reminder that vengeance doesn't build up from player damage anymore. I'm sure you know that, but it does make Prot damage a bit laughable now.

I'm pretty sure that change was reverted in a hotfix, because it was causing the ludicrous SoT damage bug.

As far as the formulas, most of it is from rigorous testing on our part (the exact type of testing we'll have to perform in the MoP beta). If you want to scrutinize the equations, they're all in ability_model (linking you to a tagged version, as we're already cleaning out the trunk in preparation for MoP).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:40 am

theckhd wrote:I'm pretty sure that change was reverted in a hotfix, because it was causing the ludicrous SoT damage bug.

Interesting, if true...
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Worldie » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:09 am

theckhd wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:
econ21 wrote:Prot PvP

Just a reminder that vengeance doesn't build up from player damage anymore. I'm sure you know that, but it does make Prot damage a bit laughable now.

I'm pretty sure that change was reverted in a hotfix, because it was causing the ludicrous SoT damage bug.

As far as the formulas, most of it is from rigorous testing on our part (the exact type of testing we'll have to perform in the MoP beta). If you want to scrutinize the equations, they're all in ability_model (linking you to a tagged version, as we're already cleaning out the trunk in preparation for MoP).

What was causing the bug with SoT had something to deal with Hunter's Scatter Shot.

The "no vengeance from PvP" was in the patch notes and should still be in place.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:15 am

Ah, found the blue post I was thinking of: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/263 ... aladin-Bug

So for the most part, Vengeance is gone in PvP.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Iminmmnni » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:58 pm

econ21 wrote:Your simulations give a good basis for quantifying some effects given a PvE rotation; I'd like to get an insight into how things may differ in a more messy PvP context.


The main issue I see with using a PvE rotation model for PvP is that the rotation code assumes you are always in melee range and can always attempt to hit your target - something that is definitely not true in PvP. It might be useful to gauge stat weighting on ability damage based on your PvP recount casts but if you ever manage to actually get a rotation happening in PvP then you opponents are probably doing something wrong ;)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:18 pm

You generally still do the same rotation in PvP, the issue is that things like Hands of Protection, Freedom, and Sacrifice or WoG (or cleanse) are higher priority than almost any of that. You still need to focus on building holy power and spending it well -- it's just that you're not always spending it on damage. That's not going to change. The main differences are that mana regen, and building holy power, are in some ways MORE important, since your dps matters in PvP more than in pve.

If you're not in melee range, you are still using judgement and AS. We're not surprised by this. When you are in melee range, Theck's hit/exp capped values are likely pretty well applicable (as both are easy to cap via reforging in PvP gear).

Same for Ret. You aren't mashing buttons, you're trying to do the same stuff you do in PvE: push out damage, and keep people from dying. (Exception: sometimes it's better to spend HP on TV rather than Inq, it seems, but running w/o Inq up seems to hurt long-term.)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Schroom » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:30 am

Yesterday, I got my hands no No'kaled normal (which is my 3rd weapon next to Souldrinker normal and Hand of Morchok HM), as we have no Shaman and our rogue got his Legendary already. I'm pretty curious if I will get a noticeable difference, compared to Souldrinker normal, in means of DPS. yes Thecks numbers say No'kaled is better in DPS terms, but does anyone have a practical experience, using this weapon?

by the way I'm at 26 Exp and 1,47% Hit.

and what I guess would be more interessting, as Souldrinker scales with stamina, does it make such a difference, that at a certain point with XX stamina, souldirnker would be bether in DPS as No'kaled?

here a link to my toon if anyone needs it: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/d ... m/advanced
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:24 am

No'Kaled's easily better dps than Souldrinker in practice as well as from the sim. Typically (416) No'Kaled procs account for about 6% of my damage while (416) Souldrinker procs account for about 2%, or a roughly 1200 dps difference. The 250ish strength on Souldrinker is only worth 350 or so DPS iirc. No'Kaled on Morchok, Hagara and Ultraxion compared to Souldrinker on the same bosses the week before. Think I was hit capped and soft exp capped on those bosses in both logs, if not then very close to.

As far as stamina scaling, the proc scales linearly with your hp (though not with the Baleroc hp buff - both weapons scale with Alys buff fwiw), so if with 200k hp it's worth roughly 600 dps, with 300k hp it'd be worth 900 dps. You'd need more HP than it's possible to obtain in this tier for it to get anywhere near to No'Kaled.

Edit: actually checking the weapon comparison chart again, the simmed gap between Souldrinker and No'Kaled seems a lot smaller than what I've seen in practice. Admittedly my sample size is fairly small at the moment but curious if I'm misinterpreting my logs or the sim's undervaluing No'Kaled or there's some other issue. At a guess it's because I'm wearing quite a bit less stamina than the gear set in the sim, and quite a bit more strength (in an actual fight).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:37 am

Rhiannon wrote:Edit: actually checking the weapon comparison chart again, the simmed gap between Souldrinker and No'Kaled seems a lot smaller than what I've seen in practice. Admittedly my sample size is fairly small at the moment but curious if I'm misinterpreting my logs or the sim's undervaluing No'Kaled or there's some other issue. At a guess it's because I'm wearing quite a bit less stamina than the gear set in the sim, and quite a bit more strength (in an actual fight).


It may be the stamina, or it may be that our modeling of No'Kaled's proc is slightly off. Wowhead seems to indicate that each has its own proc spell, so it's possible that the proc rate is different for each version (iirc we never tested this).

<edit> Also, no wonder you had so little trouble beating my #1 parse. Up until this past weekend, I didn't have a heroic Souldrinker, and I still don't have any No'Kaled. I guess there's no point in trying again until I acquire one, if it's really 6% of your damage.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:38 am

I got confused and thought the axe scaled with AP in some way, probably got it mixed up with the random trinkets. Now that I look at the logs again it definitely looks like a proc rate issue, as I'm seeing a similar number of No'Kaled procs to Souldrinker procs in kills of similar lengths despite it supposedly having less than half the proc rate (25 axe procs vs 25 drain life procs in 4:01/4:02 Hagara kills, 43 axe procs vs 43 drain life procs in 4:53/4:39 Ultraxion kills). I'll mess around on a dummy later and see if I can pin it down. Initial hunch is that when they "fixed" censure application (edit: seal of truth hits) proccing soul drinker and gurth they might have just fixed those two weapons and not done a class-wide mechanic change but that's just speculation (which wouldn't make a lot of sense from an overall design point of view either).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:25 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Initial hunch is that when they "fixed" censure application (edit: seal of truth hits) proccing soul drinker and gurth they might have just fixed those two weapons and not done a class-wide mechanic change but that's just speculation (which wouldn't make a lot of sense from an overall design point of view either).

I could definitely see that happening.

Regarding Stamina, I was pointing out that Souldrinker heals are based on max health, thus a low-stam gear set will weaken SD with respect to NK.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Schroom » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:09 pm

thanks for the great answers tho, I will check this out on the next farmbosses next week and compare my logs aswell. But thanks for the claryfication on the scaling and so on :)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:10 pm

theckhd wrote:(...) it may be that our modeling of No'Kaled's proc is slightly off. Wowhead seems to indicate that each has its own proc spell, so it's possible that the proc rate is different for each version (iirc we never tested this).

It isn't, as far as I'm aware. It rolls twice for procs, one to determine if it is a proc or not, and another (conditional; assuming the first rolls out favorably) one to determine the specific damage effect.

Rhiannon wrote:Now that I look at the logs again it definitely looks like a proc rate issue, as I'm seeing a similar number of No'Kaled procs to Souldrinker procs in kills of similar lengths despite it supposedly having less than half the proc rate (25 axe procs vs 25 drain life procs in 4:01/4:02 Hagara kills, 43 axe procs vs 43 drain life procs in 4:53/4:39 Ultraxion kills).

I've looked at your logs too, there's nothing out of the ordinary. The sample sizes are nothing to brag about, we can't extract meaningful information from ~4m kills. If you find 1-2h to AFK-parse with NK, we'd be able to check its' proc chance.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:51 am

I'm trying to remember exactly what the hotfixes to Souldrinker and Gurth actually changed. The blue post is somewhat ambiguous:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2153 ... than-dwtr/

"The specific bug was that paladins running Seal of Truth had two chances with every swing to trigger the proc with Gurthalak or Souldrinker. They now have one chance. "

This implies that seal of truth direct damage hits were proccing it, and don't any more, which is what actually happened from what I recall.

"Retribution was getting more than twice as many proc chances than we intended. This was caused by the application of Censure, not the dot itself ticking. "

This implies that hidden censure applications were proccing it. Unless I'm completely mistaken and they've got rid of those hidden censure applications with every attack, or rolled them into seal of truth hits?

Looking at how the sim handles it (though I'm mostly guessing what's going on), you're modelling SotR, CS, HotR, AS and auto-attack as being able to proc the weapons, but not seal of truth hits or judgement hits, correct? If my interpretation is correct then seeing two No'Kaled procs from one auto-attack and seal of truth hit would be sufficient to show that No'Kaled is behaving differently from Souldrinker? I've seen that twice so far while running a log on the dummy at least. I guess to be sure of the difference in behaviour I need to run a log of No'Kaled with just auto-attacks (no seal) and Souldrinker auto-attacks both with and without seal.

Log 1: No'Kaled 416 (2.6 speed) vs boss level dummy, attacking from behind with >8% hit, 26 expertise, no haste effects from gear or talents. 202 procs from 1393 melee swings (and 1392 seal of truth hits).

Code: Select all
[11:30:46.715] Rhia hits Raider's Training Dummy 2899
[11:30:46.715] Rhia Seal of Truth Raider's Training Dummy 668
[11:30:46.898] Rhia Censure Raider's Training Dummy 1731
[11:30:47.599] Rhia Flameblast Raider's Training Dummy 9560
[11:30:47.599] Rhia Flameblast Raider's Training Dummy 9909

[11:31:41.379] Rhia hits Raider's Training Dummy 2127
[11:31:41.824] Rhia Seal of Truth Raider's Training Dummy 755
[11:31:42.419] Rhia Shadowblast Raider's Training Dummy 10669
[11:31:42.419] Rhia Shadowblast Raider's Training Dummy 12412

[11:36:19.873] Rhia hits Raider's Training Dummy 2641
[11:36:20.009] Rhia Seal of Truth Raider's Training Dummy 681
[11:36:20.708] Rhia Flameblast Raider's Training Dummy 10951
[11:36:20.708] Rhia Shadowblast Raider's Training Dummy 10264

etc.
Last edited by Rhiannon on Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:37 am

Look no further than the diff between r363/r366. Before the hotfix there were up to twice as many procs (depending on hit/exp; at 0% physical hit and 10 exp, for instance, AS triggered roughly 1.6 procs on average). The direct-damage component of SoT (the seal itself) wasn't the parasitic trigger, the application of Censure was.

Use a low-level dummy for 1h+, with AA+SoT, to check both the triggers and the proc chance of NK.

EDIT : alright, that snippet is fairly conclusive. Censure's applications still trigger NK. Silly Blizzard is silly. :P

SECOND EDIT : while at it, use a few J (with SoI) to see if it now triggers SD/NK. It didn't use to, back then.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:59 am

No NK procs from 58 judgements (with SoI)

Half an hour of auto attack only with NK though I guess it doesn't really show anything new. 46 procs from 690 auto-attacks.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:09 pm

Locking thread. Goodbye 4.x, hello 5.x.
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