Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:04 am

The pvp glove bonus is additive with Crusade and WotL, so it's not going to be a very large effect (~2.2% increase to CS damage). There are more efficient ways to trade rating for stamina, so from a survivability standpoint it's not an attractive choice. Maybe it'd be useful for a 2pT13(ret)+2pT12 parse-hunting set.

Durability wrote:
The Vengeance->AP conversion brings Stamina up into fifth place, barely trailing AP. Note that this is true only at 100% vengeance, and Stamina's value as a DPS stat scales down linearly at lower vengeance levels.


Doesn't the value of Stamina drop quickly to zero as soon as you're not capping vengeance?

Your question was already answered in the section you quoted (bolding mine).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby danpaladin » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:08 pm

Long-time reader, first-time poster.

4.3 Patch Notes: Seal of Truth, when Judged, now benefits from a multiplier of 20% per stack of Censure, up from 10%.

Three quick questions: How much impact does this actually have on the damage done by Judging? Would this change the priority order in any way? Does this change the amount of threat gained by speccing into SotP?

Edit: Wrote Seal of Truth instead of SotP.
Last edited by danpaladin on Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby matthewseidl » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:41 pm

danpaladin wrote:Long-time reader, first-time poster.

4.3 Patch Notes: Seal of Truth, when Judged, now benefits from a multiplier of 20% per stack of Censure, up from 10%.

Three quick questions: How much impact does this actually have on the damage done by Judging? Would this change the priority order in any way? Does this change the amount of threat gained by speccing into Seal of Truth?


It increases the damage of Judgement by 33%. It increases the multiplier on the damage from censure stacks from 1.5 to 2.0.

I'm guessing it would change the priority to AV+ > J > AV, but I'd wait for the rest of the changes to appear. With the T13p2, we might want to be J > AV anyway for more shields.

Seals of the Pure? AFAIK, SotP doesn't effect Judgement damage.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jackinthegreen » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:16 am

Durability wrote:Has any math been done on the PvP glove effect (+5% CS damage)? The current gloves are so well-itemized we want to use them, but if we ended up with a poorly itemized pair of T13 gloves (say, hit/parry), we'd be comparing ~30 stam, ~20 str, ~45 armor, and the 5% CS damage to 200 rating, which I would think might compare pretty favorably.

If Wowhead's PTR data is correct and not subject to change, the Prot gloves are Dodge/Hit. See http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=77004 or the full set at http://ptr.wowhead.com/itemset=1065.

The Ret set has three pieces that aren't totally crappy for us, those being the Mastery/Crit legs, Mastery/Haste chest, and Expertise/Hit helm. If we wanted to make full use of our increased DPS from 2p Ret and PVP gloves, I'd personally go with Ret's legs and helm, and Prot's shoulders and chest.

2p Prot puts us in an interesting situation. In effect, Inquisition becomes something of a survival CD thanks to Judgement being Holy. Add in the increased HoPo from Ret's 2p and we might actually be in a situation where it's better mitigation and damage to use Inq regularly. It's not much, but it's worth noting.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby daiceman » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:59 am

With the recent buff to judgement damage and our t13 2pc I would be very curious to see how Arbiter of the Light's threat stats have changed. I'm pretty sure I will end up specing this as we really aren't that pressed for threat, but it would be academic to see just how much threat is lost by specing into it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Durability » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:31 am

theckhd wrote:
Durability wrote:
The Vengeance->AP conversion brings Stamina up into fifth place, barely trailing AP. Note that this is true only at 100% vengeance, and Stamina's value as a DPS stat scales down linearly at lower vengeance levels.


Doesn't the value of Stamina drop quickly to zero as soon as you're not capping vengeance?

Your question was already answered in the section you quoted (bolding mine).


No, it wasn't. An example of what I mean: suppose you have 1000 stamina (neglecting base health for the moment), and take three boss fights: one with exactly enough incoming damage to keep you capped at 1000 AP, one with twice that, and one with half. Now add 1 stamina: in the first and third cases, the stam increase nets you nothing whatsoever, and in the second, it has full value. Of course this is an ideal case and in a real fight near the borderline stamina would have some value thanks to varying incoming damage, but on a fight where you are at, say, 50% vengeance, the value of stam is not 50% of what it was at 100% vengeance, it's 0 or very close to it. Unless that's what you meant by the bolded part, but that's certainly not how I read it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby lythac » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:00 am

Code: Select all
V from   V (Cap   V (Cap
dmg      @100)    @105)

140      100      105   DPS increase
130      100      105   DPS increase
120      100      105   DPS increase
110      100      105   DPS increase
100      100      100
090      090      090
080      080      080
070      070      070


Do you mean this? Increasing your stamina and your Vengeance cap only has an effect if your Vengeance is being limited by being at cap. Being below cap adding extra sta doesn't give you any more vengeance, it only increases your cap which isn't a gain to DPS.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Meloree » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:29 am

Durability wrote:No, it wasn't. An example of what I mean: suppose you have 1000 stamina (neglecting base health for the moment), and take three boss fights: one with exactly enough incoming damage to keep you capped at 1000 AP, one with twice that, and one with half. Now add 1 stamina: in the first and third cases, the stam increase nets you nothing whatsoever, and in the second, it has full value. Of course this is an ideal case and in a real fight near the borderline stamina would have some value thanks to varying incoming damage, but on a fight where you are at, say, 50% vengeance, the value of stam is not 50% of what it was at 100% vengeance, it's 0 or very close to it. Unless that's what you meant by the bolded part, but that's certainly not how I read it.


In 4.3 it won't matter. Vengeance will basically always be capped.

In the current environment it's rare to find a fight that will keep you hovering at some value of Vengeance below 100% without ever capping it. At those moments that you cap, the additional stamina has some value. The lower your average vengeance, the less value the extra stamina will be because the less often you'll be getting to cap, in general. But in most content you *will* be capping at least once in a while, so the marginal value isn't zero. If you aren't ever capping - then the content is trivial, wear more DPS gear.

So a linear decrease is an approximation, but a fairly reasonable one, I think. It's certainly not a step-function from 100% value to 0%.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jeremoot » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:33 am

Meloree wrote:If you aren't ever capping - then the content is trivial, wear more DPS gear.


I think this sums it up, really. If you're not capping vengeance in a fight, more stamina isn't going to do anything in the way of survival and there are better alternatives for damage.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:38 pm

Running some numbers as I update the code for 4.3. This is from my local copy, which has the 20% AP buff on Might as well as the new Judgement scaling (2x damage at 5 stacks of Censure). It's still using a T12H gear set though:

Code: Select all
                 SoT, 2%/10                  SoI, 2%/10
                Damage/Healing              Damage/Healing
Ability    Raw    Dmg    Net  Glyph        Raw    Dmg  Glyph
SotR     25127  24479  25952  26926      25127  22889  25178
WoG      33536  41419  41419  45561      33536  41419  47632
CS       16676  15464  16621  16106      16676  14460  15060
HotR      2229   2067   3224   2226       2229   1933   2081
AS       18897  18728  20113  24347      18897  18728  24347
Cons     11319  11169  11169  13402      11319  11169  13402
Exor     15120  14919  16294  17903      15120  14919  17903
HoW      18559  23250  24635  23250      18559  23250  23250
HW        4797   5405   5405   5405       4797   5405   5405
Jud      23054  22848  24233  23991      12972  12856  13499
HaNova    9265   7686   7686   8277       9265   7196   7750
SoI       5844   3799      0   3799       5844   3799   3799
SoJ        612    604      0    604        612    604    604
SoR       1347   1420      0   1420       1347   1420   1420
SoT       1397   1473      0   1473       1397   1473   1473
Melee     5715   4368   5525   4368       5715   4082   4082
Cens     27895  29410  29410  29410      27895  29410  29410



Code: Select all
                                            DPS            SHPS            E    I    mps
  Q#  Priority                              V=100%  V=30%  V=100%  V=30%   %    %     
   1  SotR>CS>AS>J                          20036   12665     0       0   0.0   0.0   108
   6  SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS                      20053   12669     0       0   0.0   0.0   154
   9  SotR>CS>AS>J>HW                       20281   12910     0       0   0.0   0.0  -104
  10  SotR>CS>AS>J>Cons>HW                  20523   13039     0       0   0.0   0.0  -342
  20  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>CS>AS>J              20209   12768     0       0   0.0  40.5   102
  21  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>CS>AS+>J>AS          20221   12770     0       0   0.0  40.3   147
  27  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>CS>AS>J>Cons>HW      20743   13180     0       0   0.0  40.5  -353
  28  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>CS>AS+>J>AS>Cons>HW  20755   13179     0       0   0.0  40.3  -306
  30  WoG>CS>AS>J                           15810   10041  1971    1357   0.0   0.0   127
  31  WoG>SotR>CS>AS>J                      18190   11516  1629    1122   0.0   0.0   100
  35  WoG>SotR>CS>AS>J>Cons>HW              18683   11896  1629    1122   0.0   0.0  -355
  42  SotR>CS>AS>HoW>J                      21642   13779     0       0   0.0   0.0  -327
  48  ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>AS>HoW>J>Cons>HW  22044   14041     0       0   0.0  43.0  -375
  49  WoG>SotR>CS>AS>HoW>J>Cons>HW          19920   12710  1629    1122   0.0   0.0  -376


Code: Select all
   seal         SoI     SoT     SoT     SoT     SoT
   rotation     W39     939     939     W39     939
   hit/exp    2%/10   2%/10   8%/26   2%/10   2%/10
   Veng        100%    100%    100%    100%    30%
   CS         204.3   215.9   251.1   218.5   141.1
   HotR       238.7   252.1   309.0   255.0   154.0
   J           50.1    86.9    90.6    87.8    53.1
   SoT          0.0   991.8   506.5   916.6   633.6
   SotR       281.9   490.4   574.7   311.4   305.4
   WoG          0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0
   SoI          0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0
   Cons        18.0    19.5    23.7    19.5    17.3
   AS         451.9   567.8   636.8   572.9   368.7


So the increased Judgement damage brings it up ahead of unglyphed AS, but slightly trailing glyphed AS. The Judgement glyph is still pretty weak.

I haven't implemented T13 set bonuses yet. Prot will be easy, because I can calculate the shield amounts in post-processing. Ret will be trickier, because we'll have to edit the FSM code to accept Holy Power gains on Judgement.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:44 pm

I think it would be handy if the labadin output was rewritten to order the rotations from highest DPS to lowest at 100% Vengeance.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:57 pm

That also has the side effect of making it much, much harder to compare tweaks to the rotation (i.e. "is AS+>J>AS better than AS>J"). The list is currently ordered to make those comparisons easy to make, since that's where most of the insight comes from.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jeremoot » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:40 am

Okay, that makes more sense, and the summary at the end of your post is really all that's needed to point out the optimal rotation.

I assume these changes aren't enough to make the Glyph of Judgement appealing are they?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:27 pm

Nope, that last code block is the glyph simulation. Judgement glyph is still weak.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jackinthegreen » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:04 pm

The thing is though, once we get 2pT13 the Judgement glyph will give us a bit of mitigation. Sure it'll be weak, but every other prime glyph is just DPS/TPS, not survivability. Adding in the Ret 2p would make it more attractive and give us some extra HoPo, which definitely raises the possibility of weaving in Inq. With Inq up Judgement will hit harder and thus grant a larger shield.

Admittedly though, perhaps using the Ret 2p might set us back more. The two Ret pieces we'd use are the legs and helm, which would exempt using the Prot pieces that are dodge/mastery and dodge/parry respectively. The sheer CTC on those most would most likely outweigh the little gain we get from the 2p bonus.

If the quick napkin math I did on EJ is any indication, Prot's 2p probably won't do much. The Judgement glyph was worth less than 50 mastery rating in terms of mitigation, which means it's only worth a similar amount of avoidance too. Avoiding a 50k hit for example means we just negated 166 boss DPS during a 5 minute fight. If we assume Judgement does 20k average (which is probably high) and used every 8 seconds (definitely not happening) then the 2p is a 5k shield every 8 seconds, or 625 DPS.

Gah, heck of a time for my handheld calculator to die. Suffice to say, now that I look at it I'm pretty sure the sheer CTC of the prot pieces outweigh any gains we might get from using 2p Ret.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:10 pm

Jackinthegreen wrote:The two Ret pieces we'd use are the legs and helm


Why not use legs and chest? They both have Mastery on them. The helm is nothing but threat stats.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:47 am

Jackinthegreen wrote:The thing is though, once we get 2pT13 the Judgement glyph will give us a bit of mitigation. Sure it'll be weak, but every other prime glyph is just DPS/TPS, not survivability. Adding in the Ret 2p would make it more attractive and give us some extra HoPo, which definitely raises the possibility of weaving in Inq. With Inq up Judgement will hit harder and thus grant a larger shield.

Admittedly though, perhaps using the Ret 2p might set us back more. The two Ret pieces we'd use are the legs and helm, which would exempt using the Prot pieces that are dodge/mastery and dodge/parry respectively. The sheer CTC on those most would most likely outweigh the little gain we get from the 2p bonus.

If the quick napkin math I did on EJ is any indication, Prot's 2p probably won't do much. The Judgement glyph was worth less than 50 mastery rating in terms of mitigation, which means it's only worth a similar amount of avoidance too. Avoiding a 50k hit for example means we just negated 166 boss DPS during a 5 minute fight. If we assume Judgement does 20k average (which is probably high) and used every 8 seconds (definitely not happening) then the 2p is a 5k shield every 8 seconds, or 625 DPS.

Gah, heck of a time for my handheld calculator to die. Suffice to say, now that I look at it I'm pretty sure the sheer CTC of the prot pieces outweigh any gains we might get from using 2p Ret.


Some assorted comments on this:
1) The Judgement glyph will be a mitigation increase, but a very weak one. You're increasing the shield's value by 10%, but that's still a fairly small amount of extra absorbed damage. It's certainly something, but we get back into the same argument we've had before about SoI - it's another few hundred absorb that we can't control all that well, and will mostly just be negated by creating more overheal on the part of our healers.

If the absorb bubble were considerably larger, we might care about it the same way DKs care about timing their heals/absorbs. But 5k is such a small amount that I don't think we'll go to that extreme - the interruption of our rotation and the impact on HPG and WoG availability are probably enough to make it undesirable. Similarly, I don't think we'll be optimizing for Judgement bubbles. At best, we might switch to using Inq as a finisher, sacrificing DPS to get slightly more mitigation. But even that's questionable at this point.

That said... The only other survival options are WoG and SoI. I'd make an argument for WoG/SoT glyphs being the "default" load-out, because I think that the expertise from SoT impacts your survivability more noticeably than SoI healing. But J would certainly be an option for that third slot. It's just not a very compelling one, since the mitigation bonus is so weak.

2) I don't think that most people will seriously be considering Ret 2pc as a viable progression option. It'd certainly be a large DPS increase, but if the bosses aren't massively undertuned I think the survivability loss (a few hundred avoidance rating, roughly) wouldn't be worth it. You would be able to get off more SotRs and Inqs between WoGs, but in the end that's all it buys you.

For parse-hunting and DPS maximization, it will certainly be an attractive bonus. But that's what you do on farm content, not progression bosses. The vast majority of players won't care about that. Of course, we'll do the simulations anyway, because we have nutjobs like Khira, Meloree, and myself around who do care about that, or at least find it interesting. That shouldn't be taken as an indication that it's relevant for actually killing bosses, though.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:38 am

theckhd wrote:2) I don't think that most people will seriously be considering Ret 2pc as a viable progression option. It'd certainly be a large DPS increase, but if the bosses aren't massively undertuned I think the survivability loss (a few hundred avoidance rating, roughly) wouldn't be worth it.


There are still enough unknowns that I'm not sure about 2pc Ret for progression, but I am actually considering it. For me, it depends on the following:

(1) Whether the 4pc Prot bonus is needed. Our raid is currently so full of CDs already that I'm unconvinced that the 4pc will really be much of a benefit for my raid. Mostly it depends on if there are any fights in Dragon Soul where the 100yd range would be amazing.

(2) On how much of a DPS boost 2pc Ret actually is. I'll be curious to see. Plus I just like the idea of playing with a different rotation for a tier. :)

As far as giving up a few hundred avoidance, I'm not sure that's much of a survivability loss. The gear in the next tier is strange in that they have done away with Stamina socket bonuses. This closes the EH gap between Ret gear and Prot gear and actually leads to a model where I could see socket bonuses being ignored again.

For example if you use the Ret legs and Ret chest, you give up about 400 points in pure avoidance. However the tier prot legs have no mastery on them anyway, so in terms of CTC, I don't think you end up losing much relative to the prot gear.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:29 am

That will really depend on the off-set options as well; good mastery/avoid off-set legs would potentially end up winning that battle.

To be honest though, I haven't had time to look at the PTR gear lists that closely yet.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby lythac » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:22 pm

Kihra wrote:(1) Whether the 4pc Prot bonus is needed. Our raid is currently so full of CDs already that I'm unconvinced that the 4pc will really be much of a benefit for my raid. Mostly it depends on if there are any fights in Dragon Soul where the 100yd range would be amazing.


Also the tier bonuses aren't final. Warriors were updated not too long ago and is massively overpowered. Enough situationally (DW pt 2 sub 20%) for Fury warriors (IMO) to pick up.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:25 am

wouldn't a judgement increase of 10% be a straight 10% of Tier bonus increase? e.g. a 20% shield would be a 22% shield, etc.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby RedAces » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:28 am

Yes, No.
It will always be 20% of your J but yes it will be 10% higher than without the glyph.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:46 am

Kihra wrote:(2) On how much of a DPS boost 2pc Ret actually is. I'll be curious to see. Plus I just like the idea of playing with a different rotation for a tier. :)


I spent a couple of hours screwing around with SimulationCraft, fixed a few bugs with Prot, hacked the Vengeance calculation to just be constant, and then tested out the T13 Ret 2pc bonus. Take this with a grain of salt, since I don't know what other bugs might be lurking in the Prot module for SimulationCraft, but preliminary results show that Ret 2pc is a 1200 DPS gain for T12H level of gear at max Vengeance for low Hit/Expertise values. I coded it assuming the Judgement had to hit in order to gain Holy Power.

In terms of queues, I tried AS+ > J > AS, AS > J and J > AS, and the differences between them were all negligible. AS+ > J > AS was the winner over J > AS by 10 DPS, and AS > J was about 50 DPS behind.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:01 pm

Those numbers all sound reasonable. The MATLAB code should be updated to handle 2pc ret now, so I'll try and find some time tonight to fool around with numbers. I've been fairly busy lately this week, what with BlizzCon coming up and trying to finish up some data for a professional conference.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:06 pm

My 939 numbers are a little different. Here's what I get if I just use the T12 heroic gear set and arbitrarily toggle on the different set bonuses:

Code: Select all

939/SoT, 2% hit, 10 exp, Mandible of Beth'tilac (Heroic) 391
           v=    1           v=    0.3         
           T11   T12   T13   T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   219   838     0   143   522     0   
ret 2pc      0   756   526     0   494   310   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 56 exp, Mandible of Beth'tilac (Heroic) 391
           v=    1            v=    0.3         
           T11   T12    T13   T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   291   1111     0   190   692     0   
ret 2pc      0   1004   396     0   656   232   

I39/SoT, 2% hit, 10 exp, Mandible of Beth'tilac (Heroic) 391
           v=    1            v=    0.3         
           T11   T12    T13   T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   291    988     0   190   615     0   
ret 2pc      0   1004   446     0   656   266


So I'm getting closer to 500 DPS for the T13 ret 2-piece bonus (assuming on-cast rather than on-hit). That's with a standard 939, I'm in the process of putting together T13 gear sets and updating the comprehensive rotation simulator now.
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