Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:31 pm

This is probably beyond the scope of the sims, but would the following "common sense" guidelines make sense? This is for maximising dps, rather than initial threat or anything like that (which between the new multiplier and and misdirects should be trivial at least in a 25 man raid):

i) if you have 3 HP and you expect your vengeance to drop by a significant % over the next 9 seconds, you will probably be better off using SotR even if Inq and SD are both inactive. e.g. tank swaps on Baleroc, certain situations on Ragnaros (depending on other tank's stack RNG).

ii) similarly if AW is going to fall off before you get your next 3 holy power you will probably get more damage by using SotR regardless of Inq/SD status.

iii) even if you're not receiving tricks on the pull, AW usage should probably be delayed until you have a significant % of your max vengeance. Likewise after a low damage phase change, you should wait for vengeance to pick up again before popping AW. e.g. after first sons of flame on Rag, you'll have fairly low vengeance until after he's done his first smash and resumed meleeing you. Another example - blowing wings on Alys adds the moment they become attackable is less preferable to letting them stack your vengeance a bit first.

iv) (This one's within the scope of the sims.) I'm sure I read in this thread about the following special situation, but "[t]here's no apparent gain in prioritizing AS over CS in any circumstance (#1 vs #4/#7). " seems to contradict it. I'm thinking of the subset of #7 (SotR>AS+>CS>AS>J) where AS+ is only used ahead of CS if by not using it before CS the proc ends up expiring. That situation would only arise due to an attack not connecting when it should, but an example would be: 2HP -> CS (GC procs, 4.5 seconds left by end of GCD) 3HP -> SotR miss (3s left on proc) -> SotR hit (1.5s left on proc) -> use GC proc or CS and lose the proc. I think it was decided that in this particular case it was better to use the GC proc rather than lose it completely?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Meloree » Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:45 am

Rhiannon wrote:iv) (This one's within the scope of the sims.) I'm sure I read in this thread about the following special situation, but "[t]here's no apparent gain in prioritizing AS over CS in any circumstance (#1 vs #4/#7). " seems to contradict it. I'm thinking of the subset of #7 (SotR>AS+>CS>AS>J) where AS+ is only used ahead of CS if by not using it before CS the proc ends up expiring. That situation would only arise due to an attack not connecting when it should, but an example would be: 2HP -> CS (GC procs, 4.5 seconds left by end of GCD) 3HP -> SotR miss (3s left on proc) -> SotR hit (1.5s left on proc) -> use GC proc or CS and lose the proc. I think it was decided that in this particular case it was better to use the GC proc rather than lose it completely?


Yes, it's better to use GC than lose it, but you have one extra GCD available to use AS over what you might assume, because it doesn't trigger exactly on the CS, but half a second later, or so. So, you can CS(trigger), SotR (miss), SotR (hit), CS, GC quite comfortably. The extra GCD starts to push the expected number of clashes down pretty low, even with terrible hit/expertise, so it's a fairly minimal optimization. Consider that you have to miss ShoR 3 times in a row after proccing GC on a successful CS that generates a 3rd HP, and you probably run into the situation under once per fight, even with the nirvana of 0 hit/expertise.

Not that it's not worth doing, it's just pretty rare.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:27 am

Yeah that makes sense, I put two misses in first from what I remembered in-game and then changed it thinking I was miscounting. Conversely on bosses with enormous hitboxes (e.g. Rag) due to the ridiculous travel time on projectile attacks you sometimes get a very small window to react to an AS proc, e.g.

[18:22:56.961] Rhia casts Avenger's Shield on Ragnaros
[18:22:58.191] Rhia Avenger's Shield Ragnaros 25325
[18:22:58.205] Rhia gains Sacred Duty from Rhia
[18:22:58.455] Rhia casts Shield of the Righteous on Ragnaros
[18:22:58.700] Rhia Shield of the Righteous Ragnaros *48757*
[18:22:59.093] Rhia's Sacred Duty fades from Rhia

vs

[18:31:36.418] Rhia casts Avenger's Shield on Ragnaros
[18:31:37.580] Rhia Avenger's Shield Ragnaros 19562
[18:31:37.868] Rhia gains Sacred Duty from Rhia
[18:31:37.955] Rhia casts Inquisition

In this particular situation (GC proc at 2 HP vs boss with long projectile travel time) if one isn't able to guarantee they'll be able to react in that window I guess they should go with SotR even if Inq isn't up?
Last edited by Rhiannon on Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Durability » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:31 am

In-game ilvl is a straight average, not weighted. Easy to test using high-ilvl vendor items, buy/vendor and watch your ilvl bounce.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:53 pm

Rhiannon wrote:i)-iv)


i)-iii) are all probably slight increases.

iv) will also be an increase, but it's a relatively rare event. Rare enough that "SotR>AS[buffGC<1.5]>CS>AS>J" was less than 10 DPS ahead of the basic 939 last time we checked. That said, it is an increase; I'll update the sims and text to reflect that when I find some time.

Rhiannon wrote:Yeah that makes sense, I put two misses in first from what I remembered in-game and then changed it thinking I was miscounting. Conversely on bosses with enormous hitboxes (e.g. Rag) due to the ridiculous travel time on projectile attacks you sometimes get a very small window to react to an AS proc, e.g.

...

In this particular situation (GC proc at 2 HP vs boss with long projectile travel time) if one isn't able to guarantee they'll be able to react in that window I guess they should go with SotR even if Inq isn't up?


I'm not sure I follow - where does the projectile time factor in? The Holy Power from Grand Crusader is granted immediately upon casting AS, it doesn't wait for the AS to reach the target.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:32 pm

Sacred duty doesn't though - so you don't know whether you have a sacred duty proc or not until about 0.2s before the next GCD to decide between Inq or SotR.

Edit: I see how that was confusing, I erroneously described it as reacting to AS proc when it was the short time frame to react to a possible Sacred Duty resulting from that AS that I was concerned with, and I said conversely when in fact it has very little relation to what Meloree said, converse or otherwise.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:10 pm

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby braiel » Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:17 pm

theckhd wrote:Back: [Dreadfire Drape], reforged hit->mast, dual mastery gems


this already has mastery on it btw :)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:53 am

braiel wrote:
theckhd wrote:Back: [Dreadfire Drape], reforged hit->mast, dual mastery gems


this already has mastery on it btw :)


Meant to reply to this a few days ago, but got sidetracked. It's actually a hit->dodge reforge in the code, but I must have overlooked it when updating the text of the post. It should be correct now.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:49 pm

I'm really curious about the 2pc ret T13 set bonus and how it would affect our rotation. My instinct is that the set bonus would cause a change in priority from "AS > J" to "AS+ > J > AS".
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:47 pm

Kihra wrote:I'm really curious about the 2pc ret T13 set bonus and how it would affect our rotation. My instinct is that the set bonus would cause a change in priority from "AS > J" to "AS+ > J > AS".


That would be my guess as well.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:46 pm

theckhd wrote:
Kihra wrote:I'm really curious about the 2pc ret T13 set bonus and how it would affect our rotation. My instinct is that the set bonus would cause a change in priority from "AS > J" to "AS+ > J > AS".


That would be my guess as well.


2pc Ret T13 changed so that Judgement *always* grants 1 Holy Power. That just seems like an insane DPS boost for Prot.

With a 100% chance to gain 1 HoPo on Judgement, I think the optimal rotation gets even more interesting, especially at Hit/Exp cap. At Hit/Exp cap, I'm pretty sure you'd do J > AS period, since you'll always have time to use AS+ without losing it and virtually guarantee 6 seconds between SotRs.

Basically if you do CS - J - CS - SotR - CS - ???, you can always use the AS as the next filler and not lose the HoPo it would have generated. Moreover you're giving yourself three chances to proc Grand Crusader. In all likelihood you're looking at a capped rotation where you would be able to fill with J and AS and have six second cycles all the time.

This just seems like a huge DPS boost, but maybe I'm over-estimating it. I strongly suspect a buff to Judgement is coming given the lowering of our 2pc absorb to 25%, so it's hard to tell how to weight Judgement vs. a glyphed AS right now. If they buff Judgement there would be a nice synergy with 2pc Prot and 2pc Ret where you'd have both bonuses encouraging you to prioritize Judgement.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Meloree » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:35 pm

Kihra wrote:Basically if you do CS - J - CS - SotR - CS - ???, you can always use the AS as the next filler and not lose the HoPo it would have generated. Moreover you're giving yourself three chances to proc Grand Crusader. In all likelihood you're looking at a capped rotation where you would be able to fill with J and AS and have six second cycles all the time.


After CS-J-CS-SotR-CS, if you haven't procced GrCr, you'll use AS, finishing the cycle with CS-J-SotR (a 1 GCD pushback of CS), and be in need of a new filler. The next cycle then won't have Judgement available at all, so failing a GrCr proc, you'll do CS-Cons-CS-HW-CS-SotR. Judgement becomes available at the same time as the final CS, so you'll be pushing it back. The next cycle is then, clearly, CS-J-CS-SotR, the initial condition, and AS will be available again regardless of GrCr procs. But you certainly can't get a reliable 6s rotation, you need GrCr procs to get there, nor a reliable 7.5 second one, as the third cycle without an AS proc fails back to 9s.

It's probably worth doing the math to find out if it's worth having some dead-time to get an 8s cycle in that third round, but it's a pretty rare condition anyway. CS-X-CS-J-SotR can be repeated forever, with 0.5s of deadtime. With over 100ms of latency, I believe that cycle can be repeated forever with no apparent deadtime, if necessary.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:06 pm

Meloree wrote:
Kihra wrote:Basically if you do CS - J - CS - SotR - CS - ???, you can always use the AS as the next filler and not lose the HoPo it would have generated. Moreover you're giving yourself three chances to proc Grand Crusader. In all likelihood you're looking at a capped rotation where you would be able to fill with J and AS and have six second cycles all the time.


After CS-J-CS-SotR-CS, if you haven't procced GrCr, you'll use AS, finishing the cycle with CS-J-SotR (a 1 GCD pushback of CS), and be in need of a new filler. The next cycle then won't have Judgement available at all, so failing a GrCr proc, you'll do CS-Cons-CS-HW-CS-SotR.


That situation should be pretty rare. That requires a streak of 5-7 Crusader Strikes with no GC proc. While it will happen, yes, I don't think it will be often enough to be significant.

My intuition is still that J > AS will be the best queue (at hit / hard exp cap), but we'll have to wait until it's coded to find out!
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Durability » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:14 pm

This was probably expected anyway, but the 10% increase to Might applies to Vengeance AP, which for me ends up being something like a total 4K AP buff.

Has any math been done on the PvP glove effect (+5% CS damage)? The current gloves are so well-itemized we want to use them, but if we ended up with a poorly itemized pair of T13 gloves (say, hit/parry), we'd be comparing ~30 stam, ~20 str, ~45 armor, and the 5% CS damage to 200 rating, which I would think might compare pretty favorably.

EDIT: Also, from the stat comparison:

The Vengeance->AP conversion brings Stamina up into fifth place, barely trailing AP. Note that this is true only at 100% vengeance, and Stamina's value as a DPS stat scales down linearly at lower vengeance levels.


Doesn't the value of Stamina drop quickly to zero as soon as you're not capping vengeance?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:04 am

The pvp glove bonus is additive with Crusade and WotL, so it's not going to be a very large effect (~2.2% increase to CS damage). There are more efficient ways to trade rating for stamina, so from a survivability standpoint it's not an attractive choice. Maybe it'd be useful for a 2pT13(ret)+2pT12 parse-hunting set.

Durability wrote:
The Vengeance->AP conversion brings Stamina up into fifth place, barely trailing AP. Note that this is true only at 100% vengeance, and Stamina's value as a DPS stat scales down linearly at lower vengeance levels.


Doesn't the value of Stamina drop quickly to zero as soon as you're not capping vengeance?

Your question was already answered in the section you quoted (bolding mine).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby danpaladin » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:08 pm

Long-time reader, first-time poster.

4.3 Patch Notes: Seal of Truth, when Judged, now benefits from a multiplier of 20% per stack of Censure, up from 10%.

Three quick questions: How much impact does this actually have on the damage done by Judging? Would this change the priority order in any way? Does this change the amount of threat gained by speccing into SotP?

Edit: Wrote Seal of Truth instead of SotP.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby matthewseidl » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:41 pm

danpaladin wrote:Long-time reader, first-time poster.

4.3 Patch Notes: Seal of Truth, when Judged, now benefits from a multiplier of 20% per stack of Censure, up from 10%.

Three quick questions: How much impact does this actually have on the damage done by Judging? Would this change the priority order in any way? Does this change the amount of threat gained by speccing into Seal of Truth?


It increases the damage of Judgement by 33%. It increases the multiplier on the damage from censure stacks from 1.5 to 2.0.

I'm guessing it would change the priority to AV+ > J > AV, but I'd wait for the rest of the changes to appear. With the T13p2, we might want to be J > AV anyway for more shields.

Seals of the Pure? AFAIK, SotP doesn't effect Judgement damage.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jackinthegreen » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:16 am

Durability wrote:Has any math been done on the PvP glove effect (+5% CS damage)? The current gloves are so well-itemized we want to use them, but if we ended up with a poorly itemized pair of T13 gloves (say, hit/parry), we'd be comparing ~30 stam, ~20 str, ~45 armor, and the 5% CS damage to 200 rating, which I would think might compare pretty favorably.

If Wowhead's PTR data is correct and not subject to change, the Prot gloves are Dodge/Hit. See http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=77004 or the full set at http://ptr.wowhead.com/itemset=1065.

The Ret set has three pieces that aren't totally crappy for us, those being the Mastery/Crit legs, Mastery/Haste chest, and Expertise/Hit helm. If we wanted to make full use of our increased DPS from 2p Ret and PVP gloves, I'd personally go with Ret's legs and helm, and Prot's shoulders and chest.

2p Prot puts us in an interesting situation. In effect, Inquisition becomes something of a survival CD thanks to Judgement being Holy. Add in the increased HoPo from Ret's 2p and we might actually be in a situation where it's better mitigation and damage to use Inq regularly. It's not much, but it's worth noting.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby daiceman » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:59 am

With the recent buff to judgement damage and our t13 2pc I would be very curious to see how Arbiter of the Light's threat stats have changed. I'm pretty sure I will end up specing this as we really aren't that pressed for threat, but it would be academic to see just how much threat is lost by specing into it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Durability » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:31 am

theckhd wrote:
Durability wrote:
The Vengeance->AP conversion brings Stamina up into fifth place, barely trailing AP. Note that this is true only at 100% vengeance, and Stamina's value as a DPS stat scales down linearly at lower vengeance levels.


Doesn't the value of Stamina drop quickly to zero as soon as you're not capping vengeance?

Your question was already answered in the section you quoted (bolding mine).


No, it wasn't. An example of what I mean: suppose you have 1000 stamina (neglecting base health for the moment), and take three boss fights: one with exactly enough incoming damage to keep you capped at 1000 AP, one with twice that, and one with half. Now add 1 stamina: in the first and third cases, the stam increase nets you nothing whatsoever, and in the second, it has full value. Of course this is an ideal case and in a real fight near the borderline stamina would have some value thanks to varying incoming damage, but on a fight where you are at, say, 50% vengeance, the value of stam is not 50% of what it was at 100% vengeance, it's 0 or very close to it. Unless that's what you meant by the bolded part, but that's certainly not how I read it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby lythac » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:00 am

Code: Select all
V from   V (Cap   V (Cap
dmg      @100)    @105)

140      100      105   DPS increase
130      100      105   DPS increase
120      100      105   DPS increase
110      100      105   DPS increase
100      100      100
090      090      090
080      080      080
070      070      070


Do you mean this? Increasing your stamina and your Vengeance cap only has an effect if your Vengeance is being limited by being at cap. Being below cap adding extra sta doesn't give you any more vengeance, it only increases your cap which isn't a gain to DPS.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Meloree » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:29 am

Durability wrote:No, it wasn't. An example of what I mean: suppose you have 1000 stamina (neglecting base health for the moment), and take three boss fights: one with exactly enough incoming damage to keep you capped at 1000 AP, one with twice that, and one with half. Now add 1 stamina: in the first and third cases, the stam increase nets you nothing whatsoever, and in the second, it has full value. Of course this is an ideal case and in a real fight near the borderline stamina would have some value thanks to varying incoming damage, but on a fight where you are at, say, 50% vengeance, the value of stam is not 50% of what it was at 100% vengeance, it's 0 or very close to it. Unless that's what you meant by the bolded part, but that's certainly not how I read it.


In 4.3 it won't matter. Vengeance will basically always be capped.

In the current environment it's rare to find a fight that will keep you hovering at some value of Vengeance below 100% without ever capping it. At those moments that you cap, the additional stamina has some value. The lower your average vengeance, the less value the extra stamina will be because the less often you'll be getting to cap, in general. But in most content you *will* be capping at least once in a while, so the marginal value isn't zero. If you aren't ever capping - then the content is trivial, wear more DPS gear.

So a linear decrease is an approximation, but a fairly reasonable one, I think. It's certainly not a step-function from 100% value to 0%.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jeremoot » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:33 am

Meloree wrote:If you aren't ever capping - then the content is trivial, wear more DPS gear.


I think this sums it up, really. If you're not capping vengeance in a fight, more stamina isn't going to do anything in the way of survival and there are better alternatives for damage.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:38 pm

Running some numbers as I update the code for 4.3. This is from my local copy, which has the 20% AP buff on Might as well as the new Judgement scaling (2x damage at 5 stacks of Censure). It's still using a T12H gear set though:

Code: Select all
                 SoT, 2%/10                  SoI, 2%/10
                Damage/Healing              Damage/Healing
Ability    Raw    Dmg    Net  Glyph        Raw    Dmg  Glyph
SotR     25127  24479  25952  26926      25127  22889  25178
WoG      33536  41419  41419  45561      33536  41419  47632
CS       16676  15464  16621  16106      16676  14460  15060
HotR      2229   2067   3224   2226       2229   1933   2081
AS       18897  18728  20113  24347      18897  18728  24347
Cons     11319  11169  11169  13402      11319  11169  13402
Exor     15120  14919  16294  17903      15120  14919  17903
HoW      18559  23250  24635  23250      18559  23250  23250
HW        4797   5405   5405   5405       4797   5405   5405
Jud      23054  22848  24233  23991      12972  12856  13499
HaNova    9265   7686   7686   8277       9265   7196   7750
SoI       5844   3799      0   3799       5844   3799   3799
SoJ        612    604      0    604        612    604    604
SoR       1347   1420      0   1420       1347   1420   1420
SoT       1397   1473      0   1473       1397   1473   1473
Melee     5715   4368   5525   4368       5715   4082   4082
Cens     27895  29410  29410  29410      27895  29410  29410



Code: Select all
                                            DPS            SHPS            E    I    mps
  Q#  Priority                              V=100%  V=30%  V=100%  V=30%   %    %     
   1  SotR>CS>AS>J                          20036   12665     0       0   0.0   0.0   108
   6  SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS                      20053   12669     0       0   0.0   0.0   154
   9  SotR>CS>AS>J>HW                       20281   12910     0       0   0.0   0.0  -104
  10  SotR>CS>AS>J>Cons>HW                  20523   13039     0       0   0.0   0.0  -342
  20  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>CS>AS>J              20209   12768     0       0   0.0  40.5   102
  21  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>CS>AS+>J>AS          20221   12770     0       0   0.0  40.3   147
  27  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>CS>AS>J>Cons>HW      20743   13180     0       0   0.0  40.5  -353
  28  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>CS>AS+>J>AS>Cons>HW  20755   13179     0       0   0.0  40.3  -306
  30  WoG>CS>AS>J                           15810   10041  1971    1357   0.0   0.0   127
  31  WoG>SotR>CS>AS>J                      18190   11516  1629    1122   0.0   0.0   100
  35  WoG>SotR>CS>AS>J>Cons>HW              18683   11896  1629    1122   0.0   0.0  -355
  42  SotR>CS>AS>HoW>J                      21642   13779     0       0   0.0   0.0  -327
  48  ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>AS>HoW>J>Cons>HW  22044   14041     0       0   0.0  43.0  -375
  49  WoG>SotR>CS>AS>HoW>J>Cons>HW          19920   12710  1629    1122   0.0   0.0  -376


Code: Select all
   seal         SoI     SoT     SoT     SoT     SoT
   rotation     W39     939     939     W39     939
   hit/exp    2%/10   2%/10   8%/26   2%/10   2%/10
   Veng        100%    100%    100%    100%    30%
   CS         204.3   215.9   251.1   218.5   141.1
   HotR       238.7   252.1   309.0   255.0   154.0
   J           50.1    86.9    90.6    87.8    53.1
   SoT          0.0   991.8   506.5   916.6   633.6
   SotR       281.9   490.4   574.7   311.4   305.4
   WoG          0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0
   SoI          0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0
   Cons        18.0    19.5    23.7    19.5    17.3
   AS         451.9   567.8   636.8   572.9   368.7


So the increased Judgement damage brings it up ahead of unglyphed AS, but slightly trailing glyphed AS. The Judgement glyph is still pretty weak.

I haven't implemented T13 set bonuses yet. Prot will be easy, because I can calculate the shield amounts in post-processing. Ret will be trickier, because we'll have to edit the FSM code to accept Holy Power gains on Judgement.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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