Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Epimer » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:11 am

RedAces wrote:Or because of the WoG-portion ?


Bingo. For as long as single target threat is trivialised by other mechanics, a talent point which provides a minor buff to a survival ability > more threat.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Schroom » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:05 am

So with the new "Threat doesn't matter" thing how does it change us?

rotation, talents, glyphs.

for example would it be worth it now to change completely away from the Seal of truth to the Seal of Insight?

the same for the glyph of both seals?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jeremoot » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:16 am

Schroom wrote:So with the new "Threat doesn't matter" thing how does it change us?

rotation, talents, glyphs.

for example would it be worth it now to change completely away from the Seal of truth to the Seal of Insight?

the same for the glyph of both seals?



It hasn't changed. Threat didn't matter before, and it doesn't matter now. Most Paladins have been using Seal of Insight.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Schroom » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:19 am

yeah after having threat I usually switched to insight too. Although for trash and the first seconds of a Boss fight truth was the thing to make sure to be first in Omen from the start.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby boneyjellyfish » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:45 am

I'll be using insight for the most part now and switching to truth for DPS burn phases (i.e. Shannox normal, Beth'tilac, Alysrazor adds). There really isn't much of a point to using truth now otherwise.

I'm interested in seeing how this all plays out with the "active mitigation" ideas they have, but at least until 4.3 hits things are going to be pretty boring.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:18 am

SoI is a pretty pitiful amount of survivability in most circumstances. It comes down to a question not of threat, but of DPS. Is the 3-4k DPS of SoT worth trading for the small survivability gain of SoI. Personally I don't think I've used SoI since T11, so for me it's probably not, but YMMV.

Also, this discussion doesn't really belong in this thread.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:39 am

Question: Is there any point in keeping the "TPS" columns in the rotation simulation data dump anymore? I want to go through and do an update some time this coming week, and one of the potential clean-up tasks is to removing that column from the tables if it's no longer interesting.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jeremoot » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:15 am

theckhd wrote:Question: Is there any point in keeping the "TPS" columns in the rotation simulation data dump anymore? I want to go through and do an update some time this coming week, and one of the potential clean-up tasks is to removing that column from the tables if it's no longer interesting.


TPS is a rather moot point now, but that's not to say they won't change it again in a later patch.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:21 pm

Jeremoot wrote:TPS is a rather moot point now, but that's not to say they won't change it again in a later patch.


I'm not suggesting that we nuke all of the TPS code, just that I cut it out of the pretty-print table that the code generates. It's two lines of code, I can easily add it back in later if we suddenly care about threat again.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:23 am

Might as well comment it out, I can't imagine a situation where we care about TPS right now.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Treck » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:20 am

With the current system, tps is an outdated system, and people might aswell start using dps instead.
If you expect your dpsers to do increase their damage whatever way they can, i can assure you that YOU can increase your dps by a lot more than they usually can.
And that without really affecting your healers aswell.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Worldie » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:13 am

I agree with Treck. People should really start considering the best ways to improve their own DPS.

Replace the TPS code with a DPS one imo, after all they are exactly the same bar a x5 modifier.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby braiel » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:34 pm

with the change to censure how much more of a dps increase does it make keeping inq up?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:20 am

Not very much. It's still ahead, but the margin hasn't grown significantly.

I have the code updated, I just need to find time to post the results. Probably later today.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:56 am

All results should now be updated for 4.2.2. I'm now using the T12 heroic gear set, and I've axed the threat columns in the rotation sim.

Also, for those curious about DPS scaling with tier gear, here are some limited results from the rotation sim for each gear set using the SotR>CS>AS>J>Cons>HW rotation.

Code: Select all
Set         DPS    ilvl
Pre-raid: 14988    357.4
T11:      15196    359
T11H:     16297    368.9
T12:      17498    378
T12H:     18730    391


The ilvl values for each set are an arithmetic mean (i.e. not slot weighted). I'm not sure if this is how the game actually calculates your average ilvl, or if it uses a similar slot weighting to the itemization formulas. If anyone knows for sure, let me know. In any event, the T11, T12, and T12H sets are identically 359, 378, and 391 respectively. The T11H set uses one or two 359 pieces (cloak, ring, relic, mirror), and the pre-raid set is a mish-mash of 353-365 items.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:31 pm

This is probably beyond the scope of the sims, but would the following "common sense" guidelines make sense? This is for maximising dps, rather than initial threat or anything like that (which between the new multiplier and and misdirects should be trivial at least in a 25 man raid):

i) if you have 3 HP and you expect your vengeance to drop by a significant % over the next 9 seconds, you will probably be better off using SotR even if Inq and SD are both inactive. e.g. tank swaps on Baleroc, certain situations on Ragnaros (depending on other tank's stack RNG).

ii) similarly if AW is going to fall off before you get your next 3 holy power you will probably get more damage by using SotR regardless of Inq/SD status.

iii) even if you're not receiving tricks on the pull, AW usage should probably be delayed until you have a significant % of your max vengeance. Likewise after a low damage phase change, you should wait for vengeance to pick up again before popping AW. e.g. after first sons of flame on Rag, you'll have fairly low vengeance until after he's done his first smash and resumed meleeing you. Another example - blowing wings on Alys adds the moment they become attackable is less preferable to letting them stack your vengeance a bit first.

iv) (This one's within the scope of the sims.) I'm sure I read in this thread about the following special situation, but "[t]here's no apparent gain in prioritizing AS over CS in any circumstance (#1 vs #4/#7). " seems to contradict it. I'm thinking of the subset of #7 (SotR>AS+>CS>AS>J) where AS+ is only used ahead of CS if by not using it before CS the proc ends up expiring. That situation would only arise due to an attack not connecting when it should, but an example would be: 2HP -> CS (GC procs, 4.5 seconds left by end of GCD) 3HP -> SotR miss (3s left on proc) -> SotR hit (1.5s left on proc) -> use GC proc or CS and lose the proc. I think it was decided that in this particular case it was better to use the GC proc rather than lose it completely?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Meloree » Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:45 am

Rhiannon wrote:iv) (This one's within the scope of the sims.) I'm sure I read in this thread about the following special situation, but "[t]here's no apparent gain in prioritizing AS over CS in any circumstance (#1 vs #4/#7). " seems to contradict it. I'm thinking of the subset of #7 (SotR>AS+>CS>AS>J) where AS+ is only used ahead of CS if by not using it before CS the proc ends up expiring. That situation would only arise due to an attack not connecting when it should, but an example would be: 2HP -> CS (GC procs, 4.5 seconds left by end of GCD) 3HP -> SotR miss (3s left on proc) -> SotR hit (1.5s left on proc) -> use GC proc or CS and lose the proc. I think it was decided that in this particular case it was better to use the GC proc rather than lose it completely?


Yes, it's better to use GC than lose it, but you have one extra GCD available to use AS over what you might assume, because it doesn't trigger exactly on the CS, but half a second later, or so. So, you can CS(trigger), SotR (miss), SotR (hit), CS, GC quite comfortably. The extra GCD starts to push the expected number of clashes down pretty low, even with terrible hit/expertise, so it's a fairly minimal optimization. Consider that you have to miss ShoR 3 times in a row after proccing GC on a successful CS that generates a 3rd HP, and you probably run into the situation under once per fight, even with the nirvana of 0 hit/expertise.

Not that it's not worth doing, it's just pretty rare.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:27 am

Yeah that makes sense, I put two misses in first from what I remembered in-game and then changed it thinking I was miscounting. Conversely on bosses with enormous hitboxes (e.g. Rag) due to the ridiculous travel time on projectile attacks you sometimes get a very small window to react to an AS proc, e.g.

[18:22:56.961] Rhia casts Avenger's Shield on Ragnaros
[18:22:58.191] Rhia Avenger's Shield Ragnaros 25325
[18:22:58.205] Rhia gains Sacred Duty from Rhia
[18:22:58.455] Rhia casts Shield of the Righteous on Ragnaros
[18:22:58.700] Rhia Shield of the Righteous Ragnaros *48757*
[18:22:59.093] Rhia's Sacred Duty fades from Rhia

vs

[18:31:36.418] Rhia casts Avenger's Shield on Ragnaros
[18:31:37.580] Rhia Avenger's Shield Ragnaros 19562
[18:31:37.868] Rhia gains Sacred Duty from Rhia
[18:31:37.955] Rhia casts Inquisition

In this particular situation (GC proc at 2 HP vs boss with long projectile travel time) if one isn't able to guarantee they'll be able to react in that window I guess they should go with SotR even if Inq isn't up?
Last edited by Rhiannon on Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Durability » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:31 am

In-game ilvl is a straight average, not weighted. Easy to test using high-ilvl vendor items, buy/vendor and watch your ilvl bounce.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:53 pm

Rhiannon wrote:i)-iv)


i)-iii) are all probably slight increases.

iv) will also be an increase, but it's a relatively rare event. Rare enough that "SotR>AS[buffGC<1.5]>CS>AS>J" was less than 10 DPS ahead of the basic 939 last time we checked. That said, it is an increase; I'll update the sims and text to reflect that when I find some time.

Rhiannon wrote:Yeah that makes sense, I put two misses in first from what I remembered in-game and then changed it thinking I was miscounting. Conversely on bosses with enormous hitboxes (e.g. Rag) due to the ridiculous travel time on projectile attacks you sometimes get a very small window to react to an AS proc, e.g.

...

In this particular situation (GC proc at 2 HP vs boss with long projectile travel time) if one isn't able to guarantee they'll be able to react in that window I guess they should go with SotR even if Inq isn't up?


I'm not sure I follow - where does the projectile time factor in? The Holy Power from Grand Crusader is granted immediately upon casting AS, it doesn't wait for the AS to reach the target.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:32 pm

Sacred duty doesn't though - so you don't know whether you have a sacred duty proc or not until about 0.2s before the next GCD to decide between Inq or SotR.

Edit: I see how that was confusing, I erroneously described it as reacting to AS proc when it was the short time frame to react to a possible Sacred Duty resulting from that AS that I was concerned with, and I said conversely when in fact it has very little relation to what Meloree said, converse or otherwise.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:10 pm

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby braiel » Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:17 pm

theckhd wrote:Back: [Dreadfire Drape], reforged hit->mast, dual mastery gems


this already has mastery on it btw :)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:53 am

braiel wrote:
theckhd wrote:Back: [Dreadfire Drape], reforged hit->mast, dual mastery gems


this already has mastery on it btw :)


Meant to reply to this a few days ago, but got sidetracked. It's actually a hit->dodge reforge in the code, but I must have overlooked it when updating the text of the post. It should be correct now.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:49 pm

I'm really curious about the 2pc ret T13 set bonus and how it would affect our rotation. My instinct is that the set bonus would cause a change in priority from "AS > J" to "AS+ > J > AS".
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