Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Chasey » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:02 am

I have a question, I know I will probably get killed for this but at the heroic instance level or trash mob tanking will http://www.wowhead.com/item=42500/titanium-shield-spike#created-bybe more threat on a shield than the 18 stam? Is vengeance enough to make the 18 stam worth more threat than the 46-67 damage the spike will cause? I doubt I would use the spike on a boss fight but putting this on a trash shield might be nice for threat.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:04 pm

If I had to guess, I'd say the shield spike will give you more damage in heroics. In my experience, Vengeance doesn't stack very high in 5-mans.
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Re:

Postby Digren » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:02 pm

theckhd wrote:Next, let's look at Hit Rating as a primary stat:

Image
HotR graph

The only interesting feature on this plot is the hit rating curve, which nose-dives right at the 8% melee hit cap. While in Wrath, we still saw a moderate benefit from hit above 8%, the combination of 6% spell hit from talents and a significant reduction in the amount of our DPS subject to spell hit has made the benefit over cap essentially zero. So like many DPS classes, hit rating below the cap will be one of our best threat stats, while anything above the cap is wasted.

If you didn't notice already, they're still mucking with this.
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic

Now we get 8% spell hit from talents in beta. Not sure if/when they'll push it live.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:15 pm

Interesting, that would mean that we spell hit cap before we reach melee cap. I doubt it will get pushed to live before 4.0.3 though, and even if it did it wouldn't change much (hit still better than STR until melee cap, still worthless above melee cap).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby towelliee » Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:53 pm

Theck my whole ICC tonight is logged thus far. I did some bosses with CS as main HP generator and some with hotr if you wanna see the numbers. This is unglyphed

Just did BQ with hotr gylph
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby jere » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:22 pm

Theck, I don't know if any of this stuff will be useful for you, but I did some threat testing tonight and posted the results here:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php? ... atch-4.0.1)

Some interesting things:
SoI heal generates threat, but mana gain does not
Consecration has a hidden debuff that provides a flat 12.00 threat before RF in addition to the damage
Heals are still modified by 25% despite the blue post
Ret aura is 2x threat

It's not done, but it was all I had time for tonight.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:41 am

Forgive me if this is known, but has the effect of haste rating on Censure been factored in? The ret paladin in my guild was saying that Censure's ticks are being affected by your haste rating at the time the Censure is first applied, and that the hastened tick speed persists as long as you don't let the DoT fall off.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby d503 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:27 am

Kihra wrote:Forgive me if this is known, but has the effect of haste rating on Censure been factored in? The ret paladin in my guild was saying that Censure's ticks are being affected by your haste rating at the time the Censure is first applied, and that the hastened tick speed persists as long as you don't let the DoT fall off.


theckhd wrote:The third tier consists of Haste, which is far ahead of its comrades Mastery, Spellpower, and Intellect. Haste has seen a significant increase since Wrath due to a combination of Censure haste-scaling and Reckoning. It's low enough that we wouldn't consider it part of the second tier (ages 10 and up!), but it's still a far cry better than SP or Intellect.

Image
HotR graph


From the front page. Haste is not something we'd want to every itemize, and is additionally a bit behind from a Talents perspective (Judgements of the Pure).

TheckHD wrote:
Code: Select all
                           DPS per point
Talent                     Sim  Model   w/Cons
SotP                      43.4   43.4    ---
Hallowed Ground            0.0    0.0   18.0
WotL                     284.4  277.6  272.1
Reckoning                 97.8   97.8    ---
Arbiter of the Light      23.2   22.7    ---
JotP                      30.6   30.6    ---
Crusade                   76.5   74.8    ---
Rule of Law               40.5   39.5    ---
Grand Crusader            53.9   46.7    ---
Sacred Duty              287.3  283.4    ---
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kihra » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:58 am

d503 wrote:From the front page. Haste is not something we'd want to every itemize, and is additionally a bit behind from a Talents perspective (Judgements of the Pure).


I wasn't so much concerned with the value of Haste as the value of Censure. Maybe it's considered a bug, but you can (apparently, I haven't tested this myself) pre-pot and have a super hasted Censure going for an entire fight. That would presumably increase the value of Censure somewhat (even if it doesn't increase the value of Haste on gear).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:16 pm

Kihra wrote:
d503 wrote:From the front page. Haste is not something we'd want to every itemize, and is additionally a bit behind from a Talents perspective (Judgements of the Pure).


I wasn't so much concerned with the value of Haste as the value of Censure. Maybe it's considered a bug, but you can (apparently, I haven't tested this myself) pre-pot and have a super hasted Censure going for an entire fight. That would presumably increase the value of Censure somewhat (even if it doesn't increase the value of Haste on gear).

I haven't seen data that confirms this one way or another. I was under the impression that it worked like the new Warlock DoT system, where everything is recalculated any time the DoT is reapplied. This includes Haunt refreshing Corruption, for example, and thus should include melee swings refreshing Censure.

However, as I said, I haven't seen evidence one way or the other. It's certainly a test I'd be interested in seeing performed.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Pallatine » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:21 pm

theckhd wrote:I haven't seen data that confirms this one way or another. I was under the impression that it worked like the new Warlock DoT system, where everything is recalculated any time the DoT is reapplied. This includes Haunt refreshing Corruption, for example, and thus should include melee swings refreshing Censure.

However, as I said, I haven't seen evidence one way or the other. It's certainly a test I'd be interested in seeing performed.


Not that I have proof to offer, but this interested me. I noticed last night that the tooltip for my Censure updates based on the value of haste I currently have.

I.E. before judging it shows at ticking every 3 seconds, but after judging (I have two points in JotP) it drops to 2.83 seconds. This of course, no way says anything about the damage my censure dot is dealing.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby d503 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:35 pm

Pallatine wrote:
theckhd wrote:I haven't seen data that confirms this one way or another. I was under the impression that it worked like the new Warlock DoT system, where everything is recalculated any time the DoT is reapplied. This includes Haunt refreshing Corruption, for example, and thus should include melee swings refreshing Censure.

However, as I said, I haven't seen evidence one way or the other. It's certainly a test I'd be interested in seeing performed.


Not that I have proof to offer, but this interested me. I noticed last night that the tooltip for my Censure updates based on the value of haste I currently have.

I.E. before judging it shows at ticking every 3 seconds, but after judging (I have two points in JotP) it drops to 2.83 seconds. This of course, no way says anything about the damage my censure dot is dealing.


Seems like it wouldn't be consistent with DoT behavior, is likely a bug, and probably will end up getting fixed, should it be properly reported.

In the end it doesn't seem like it would be that much of a DPS/TPS increase. To boot, our threat is fine, so I wouldn't feel forced to min-max a speed pot pre-fight when I could use something for survivability (armor or w/e)...seems like Golemblood Potion could be a better option too...though the longer the fight, the more powerful the speed increase becomes...
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Robbert » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:53 pm

Hey Theck,

Any chance you could include Quel'Serrar in your weapon comparisons on the first page of posts? I'd guess given the 2.0 speed compared to most tanking weapons it will rank reasonably well for it's item level, but some hard numbers would be nice.

Thanks!
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:40 pm

Its fairly easy to guesstimate where a weapon is going to fall in the chart. If you disregard the effect of hit/expertise adding to the TPS, then its just a matter of which weapon has a higher average damage. 245 Quel'Serrar is just under 264 Last Word(but Last Word has the Str Proc). I assume Burnished Quel'Serrar would be just behind 264 Last Word then.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby daiceman » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:28 am

Just wanting to confirm. using the CS-J-CS-X-CS-ShoR model, if your ShoR misses, is it advantageous to judge again to attempt to turn proc SD? Your initial dps comparison of rotation abilities seems to confirm that this would be a dps increase.
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