The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby anafielle » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:43 pm

Meloree..... is the title of this post a pun? If so, it's terrible! I approve!!

Thanks for the excellent reading & for linking this to me on Rhidach's blog. I can't wait to put some of it into practice.

I'm definitely paying very, very close attention to what you (and Wrathy and others in this thread) have to say about survivability sacrifices in a set such as this. At 9/12 H ICC right now, we've still got some progression in front of us even with the 30% buff in place. Some of our farm fights can occasionally be not-so-farm. At the same time, the egotist in me craves big numbers, and there is nothing I like more than beating DPS on recount. Nothing. It makes me feel warm and special inside.

This makes for some really engrossing albeit perhaps theoretical reading. With some more research and thinking, I'm sure I can figure out a way to have a little bit of fun with my own gear.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Meloree » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:46 pm

anafielle wrote:Meloree..... is the title of this post a pun? If so, it's terrible! I approve!!


Yes.

anafielle wrote:Thanks for the excellent reading & for linking this to me on Rhidach's blog. I can't wait to put some of it into practice.

I'm definitely paying very, very close attention to what you (and Wrathy and others in this thread) have to say about survivability sacrifices in a set such as this.

This makes for some really engrossing albeit perhaps theoretical reading. With some more research and thinking, I'm sure I can figure out a way to have a little bit of fun with my own gear.


You can always try - it's nice to train up the healers. Keep them sharp. I've done this sort of thing without getting a free 30% buff, too - in Uld and Naxx, I kinda didn't bother in ToGC. You pick your floor-figure for survivability stats, and build to that. Maximizing tank DPS is a way to keep content fresh, for me.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby anafielle » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:35 am

OK, I am building my own epeen stroking set. Survivability... well, what the hell else do we have Ardent Defender for, anyways? Might as well put it to work.

So I am rereading all the Theck threat math & playing on CharDev at work, and I have some logistical questions.

Expertise. Please bear with me because I am not really specced into Mathadin. I see that expertise is our BFF up to the soft cap. But what about between the soft & hard caps? I thought expertise at that point was not really all that optimal, coming in right around AP for threat. So why prioritize Expertise? Are we? Because it looks like the hard cap is a priority. Of course, you do say that a lot of things change from theck's simmed values when you get to extreme levels of offsensive stats. I am probably missing something here. How much of a priority is the expertise hard cap?

Enchants/Gems. I am just curious from a logistical standpoint - I see in your gearsets that you have your T10 chanted for DPS (and gemmed!), but my armory stalking reveals that you have them gemmed & chanted back to tank. Are you actually switching all those gems & enchants back and forth?

Spec. More armory stalking! Is your threat set specced out of Anticipation? I thought you said it was a DPS upgrade?
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Epimer » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:03 am

anafielle wrote:Enchants/Gems. I am just curious from a logistical standpoint - I see in your gearsets that you have your T10 chanted for DPS (and gemmed!), but my armory stalking reveals that you have them gemmed & chanted back to tank. Are you actually switching all those gems & enchants back and forth?


"I regemmed some pieces I don't use at Halion or LK, and regem others back and forth (gem str at the beginning of Tuesday, gem back to stam at the end of Tuesday)"

Spec. More armory stalking! Is your threat set specced out of Anticipation? I thought you said it was a DPS upgrade?


"The next, somewhat intuitive, point, is that anticipation is a dps/tps loss."

Both from Meloree's posts earlier in the thread.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby anafielle » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:07 am

Thanks! My reading comprehension fails miserably.

I phrased my spec question totally wrong. What I meant was anticipation is a DPS loss (I did read the first post), but he is specced back into it.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Meloree » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:22 am

anafielle wrote:OK, I am building my own epeen stroking set. Survivability... well, what the hell else do we have Ardent Defender for, anyways? Might as well put it to work.


Solid. Let us know how it goes :)

anafielle wrote:Expertise. Please bear with me because I am not really specced into Mathadin. I see that expertise is our BFF up to the soft cap. But what about between the soft & hard caps? I thought expertise at that point was not really all that optimal, coming in right around AP for threat. So why prioritize Expertise? Are we? Because it looks like the hard cap is a priority. Of course, you do say that a lot of things change from theck's simmed values when you get to extreme levels of offsensive stats. I am probably missing something here. How much of a priority is the expertise hard cap?


The expertise hardcap isn't a priority per se, but consider your options in tank gear and ret gear for threat-stats. In tank gear, your threat-stat options are hit, expertise, and nothing. Therefore, I tend to pick high-defence first, and hit/expertise second for those pieces. High strength is also nice, but it's not as easy to hunt for. In ret gear, your threat-stat options are crit, haste, arp, hit, and expertise. Haste and ArP are worse than expertise and hit (up to hardcaps), so I pick my ret pieces for crit/expertise and crit/hit. The strength tends to take care of itself. Also, it's just generally nice to never miss, it makes things feel nice and consistent, and having your 10k HotR (normal hit during wings+proc - I've actually seen 25k crits) get parried just sucks.

anafielle wrote:Enchants/Gems. I am just curious from a logistical standpoint - I see in your gearsets that you have your T10 chanted for DPS (and gemmed!), but my armory stalking reveals that you have them gemmed & chanted back to tank. Are you actually switching all those gems & enchants back and forth?

Yes. I switch back and forth. This Tuesday I was being a tad more conservative, I had some other priorities - primarily getting Shadowmourne infusions done - so I didn't actually worry too much about parse-hunting. As it stands, I make around 20k per week just from 10-man sales runs on Mondays. 3 hours of work for a pretty extensive pre-Cataclysm bank exploits my general WoW preferences nicely. I'm not interested in playing the AH game for making serious bank, I just have a couple of hundred thousand gold saved up. 1-2k of regemming doesn't really put a dent in my income, I don't mind the expenditure for parse-hunting, because it's fun, and that's what WoW gold is really for.

anafielle wrote:Spec. More armory stalking! Is your threat set specced out of Anticipation? I thought you said it was a DPS upgrade?

Yeah. This Tuesday I was being a bit conservative.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Cylora » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:50 pm

As I'm building my gearset for this week's reach for meloree's top spot I'm wondering about stat weights, especially comparing str, AP and crit/agi.
Are the weights in theck's matlab thread in any way accurate for an extreme setup? We do have more strenght/AP, but also more crit, more auto attacks/seal procs through reckoning, etc.

If anyone is interested, this is going to be my setup on (probably) wednesday. According to the stat weights above, I could switch WFS with Greatness for a small or even decent gain which is why I'm curious whether they are valid. And I still can't really afford to regem/reenchant regularly, I know I could probably gain a little dps without sacrificing survivability.
Last edited by Cylora on Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Meloree » Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:30 pm

Cylora wrote:As I'm building my gearset for this weeks reach for the meloree's topspot I'm wondering about stat weights, especially comparing str, AP and crit/agi.
Are the weights in theck's matlab thread in any way accurate for an extreme setup? We do have more strenght/AP, but also more crit, more auto attacks/seal procs through reckoning, etc.

If anyone is interested, this is going to be my setup on (probably) wednesday. According to the stat weights above, I could switch WFS with Greatness for a small or even decent gain which is why I'm curious whether they are valid. And I still can't really afford to regem/reenchant regularly, I know I could probably gain a little dps without sacrificing survivability.


The weights I had spit out for my gearset at the time (Page 1) were (in units of 10 itemization points):
Strength: 20
AP: 13
Crit: 12
Agility: 9
Haste: 8

Being so close to expertise and hit caps, tlitp didn't give me weights for those, or ArP, but I assume ArP weights pretty low, and hit/expertise probably weight fairly well. At a guess, better than haste, and probably better than crit.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Araiken » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:34 pm

Hey,

I semi tried this out tonight, meaning I had the gear on but not the spec/glyphs. This was only on Festergut. I managed to do 12.3k DPS. The only thing I think really holding me back is my 258 weapon... Here is the WoL link: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9 ... 865&e=6096. So I was using H [Cudgel of the Damned]. Do you guys think a 277 Last word would be better or no since it is a 1.8 speed.

Edit:

BTW. Toon name is addie
http://chardev.org/?profile=444079 was the set I used.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Cylora » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:49 pm

I got some nice rankings but I'm not really satisfied. At least on festergut I could have been better (e.g. I used Avenging Wrath at the start instead of at 9 stacks, I'm too used to using it at the start of the fight :/). And I'm still not used to the different rotation.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s87g ... 411&e=2586
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Selgar » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:22 am

Hmmm..Ok I have a question for the math guys.

How much of a dps loss would it be if you were to use this spec and gear and NOT be tanking (ie no reckoning). Because I am thinking that having an extra "tank" that can pull 10k+ dps and has the ability to save a wipe would be a very handy thing to have..
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:26 am

You'd also lose HS damage, and by not tanking you'd probably run into mana problems on most fights, so Consecration might have to go as well.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Magnusharkov » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:33 am

I've done a touch over 10k dps on festergut when not tanking as prot in ret gear. If I remember correctly I was on the 25% buff and a completely standard tanking and glyph spec. I'm fairly confident you could break 12-14k dps with a prot specific gearset/spec/glyphs and top notch gear. With full raid buffs mana wasn't an issue.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:44 am

Festergut would probably be fine, as the raid-wide AoE damage will prop up your mana through SA. Similarly on BQL, Sindragosa, and Princes if you use Shadow Prison wisely.

On Rotface, you could always eat slime sprays, I guess. Dreamwalker you could eat zombie explodes, though you might be just as well off actually tanking there.

Putricide might be trickier, even though that's a fight where I could really see the benefit of having a 10k DPS "tank." If you ate every ooze explosion and were lucky enough to stand in a few ooze puddles, you could probably keep your mana up there.

For the first wing, you could stand in Coldflame on Marrowgar, eat cleaves on Deathwhisper, and stand in rockets on Gunship. DBS is the one fight where there really aren't any external damage sources you can exploit for mana.

So on further reflection, maybe my concerns about mana are unfounded. You'd still lose Holy Shield and Reckoning damage (though you could replace HS with AS/HoWra/HoW), but you could probably keep Consecration.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:06 pm

Tecnically in presence of raid damage Reckoning could still proc... though not as much as while tanking, obviously. But in a constant raid damage situation (any boss with aura damages) the uptime for Reckoning should be decent.
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