I'll just leave this here

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd


Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:14 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Don't discount that armor from Agi, remember mitigation like block is taken AFTER the armor mitigation, if something his hitting me now for 30k (I have ~70% armor mitigation) then the swing was for 100k, and that 5 block value is accounting for .005% mitigation. Armor mitigation will scale with the hit size, and block won't.

I don't think it's fair to compare the block value to the unmitigated hit size. You'll never be in a situation where you have 0% armor mitigation with only your block to save you.

Armor and block work synergistically as well. The more Armor you have, the more effective your block value is. If your armor brings that 100k attack down to 30k, it means your 1k block value (which knocks the hit down to 29k) is essentially taking 3.3k damage off of the unmitigated hit size. If you increase your armor to 80% mitigation, your 1k block value is now taking 5k off of the unmitigated hit.

That said, you're completely right about armor scaling with hit size. That's the biggest reason that BV/BR was king in Naxx (small hit size) and armor is king now (large hit size).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8000
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:37 pm

theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Don't discount that armor from Agi, remember mitigation like block is taken AFTER the armor mitigation, if something his hitting me now for 30k (I have ~70% armor mitigation) then the swing was for 100k, and that 5 block value is accounting for .005% mitigation. Armor mitigation will scale with the hit size, and block won't.

I don't think it's fair to compare the block value to the unmitigated hit size. You'll never be in a situation where you have 0% armor mitigation with only your block to save you.

Armor and block work synergistically as well. The more Armor you have, the more effective your block value is. If your armor brings that 100k attack down to 30k, it means your 1k block value (which knocks the hit down to 29k) is essentially taking 3.3k damage off of the unmitigated hit size. If you increase your armor to 80% mitigation, your 1k block value is now taking 5k off of the unmitigated hit.

That said, you're completely right about armor scaling with hit size. That's the biggest reason that BV/BR was king in Naxx (small hit size) and armor is king now (large hit size).
It's fair in the context of his comparison, where he was saying 3k block is 10% mitigation on a 30k hit and discounting agility's numerically very small increase in mitigation. I got the perception that he wasn't grasping the pre/post armor mitigation percentages, which is what I'm addressing with that comment.

As an aside, there have been armor debuffing mobs, and armor has always been king really, you just couldn't stack it until now.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9668
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:05 pm

Nika, can you post this as well?


You all seem a tad bit too focused on Stamina when you should probably focus on avoidance (namely Block) for physical heavy bosses and let another tank take care of casters, but that's just my opinion, I'll leave this thread now and await until I have to face those encounters myself, if I ever get there, and then draw my conclusions.
For consistency's sake, lets not consider block as part of avoidance. In any event, I think what you mean is that we are focused too much on health when instead we should be focused on mitigation. I think this is one case where your lack of experience in raids shows. Essentially, we don't really focus on Stamina, as much as we focus on effective health, it just happens that Stamina is a very efficient way to increase effective health, and it works on both physical and spell damaged based sources.

With effective health (EH), what we are going for is the ability to last a few hits without heals and without dying in a similar way as a time to live analysis would illustrate. This is designed to allow you to live through those "oh crap" moments that can happen due to healers being otherwise occupied. Currently, healing throughput far surpasses the damage that you take, so you want to make sure you can survive when that throughput is interrupted. Once you are comfortable with your EH (usually 2-3 hits depending on the boss), then mitigation becomes more of a focus. For what it is worth, block value is generally included in your EH, but only if you can block every hit, unfortunately that's typically not the case in ICC. Armor and BV are both powerful there, as they both contribute to EH and Mitigation, and of course Avoidance (miss, dodge, parry) is a huge source of mitigation once your EH is where you want it.

Heroics are pretty different, since hit sizes are much smaller there isn't really a source of burst damage, so throughput is generally the game, and block becomes incredibly powerful because its flat damage reduction is a pretty big chunk of the hits that you take. Against bosses that have unmitigated swings up around the 100k mark, block becomes fairly weak when compared to armor, especially when you can't block every hit, and that's why agility providing both armor and avoidance works out well, both in theory and mathematically.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9668
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby yappo » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:31 pm

I apologize for starting this crap in the first place.

Jetlagged as **** and with an infant in hospital, but that still doesn't excuse my tone in adressing bad advice. Locking the thread that gave rise to the one you're currently discussing was probably for the best.
yappo
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:42 pm

Argh sorry, I was out of the office all day today. Do you still want that posted Fridmarr?
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:38 pm

No, he's either a troll or lacks some rather basic knowledge about tanking and it's just too difficult to educate him in this way. He actually started touting block's ability to remove crushing blows. There's lots of other mistakes and inconsistencies in his posts as well. In short it's not worth the effort, though he's welcome to join here if he wants to learn and continue to argue the position that block + avoidance is better than health + armor.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9668
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Epimer » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:41 am

You know when you know you're being trolled but continue anyway because you're feeling argumentative? Yeah.

<-- Lumines in that thread
User avatar
Epimer
 
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:54 am

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby badgermonkey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:10 am

<- Needonboots

Got fed up, words couldn't express what I wanted to say. He just ignores any points that correct him, and carries on. It's pointless arguing, because an argument only works if they even HEAR your points in the first place.
Image
badgermonkey
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:36 pm

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:17 am

He's very confused, but it's funny because you can tell when he went off and read something that he thinks supports his theories and then tries to apply that new found knowledge, but of course lacking fundamental knowledge, he just gets it all twisted.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9668
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Chasey » Sun May 02, 2010 2:17 pm

I just read all that garbage and I have a worse headache than before.

My guess is that some people will never get it.
A few things stick out to me in that 7 or 8 page debacle:
~1st you have to see the content in question before you start throwing out reasonings why "my way is right" rethoric.
~2nd you can't compare apples to oranges and get the correct answer. His yellow gems are far superior in avoidance to the red socket agi/stam.
~3rd having an open mind when 150 posts against the point you are trying to make right tell you are wrong, at that point you might just be wrong.

Thanks to those here who have gone over to that thread and tried to lead the horse to water.
User avatar
Chasey
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:57 pm

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby theckhd » Tue May 04, 2010 8:19 am

For posting, Nika, if you get the chance.

I don't know why I'm returning here, because I don't think the OP is interested in learning anything, just trolling. But I want to cherry-pick a few statements and correct them just for the record. I probably won't wade any further into this dreck, because I have better things to do than correct logical errors in an irrelevant discussion.

All of the following quotes are from Allene except for the tankspot "What is a Block?" definition, for which a link is provided, and my own quote, signified by "Theck Said:".

I have 103% avoidance self buffed before diminishing returns, 35k health with Sanctuary, 4.7% expertise, and 7.5% hit in my current gear, it's no way near from being the best gear in the game, and I block 2k.

No, actually, you don't. You have 704 dodge rating, 174 parry rating, 878 defense rating, and 112 agility according to your armory. That's a total of 34.3% avoidance from gear after diminishing returns (including miss DR). Add in the base 10% dodge, 10% parry, and 5% miss and you're at 59.3% avoidance outside of ICC, which is consistent with what you get from adding up your character sheet values.

You also have 15.78% block on your character sheet, plus 30% from holy shield, for 45.8% block. Note that block is not avoidance, and never has been, even in BC. The formal definition of avoidance is an attack table result that causes 0 damage (like a dodge/parry/miss). If you don't believe me, you can check the tankspot definition from 2007:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?41527-Blocking
What is a Block?
Where dodge and parry are damage avoidance (you avoid the entire effect of an attack), a block is mitigation (you avoid some of the effect of an attack).


So outside of ICC you have 59.3% avoidance and 45.8% block for 105.1% unhittable - you block every attack that isn't avoided. Inside of ICC you are still 17.3% away from unhittable. Redoubt doesn't count, because it isn't up 100% of the time - 10% if you're lucky, so it's maybe 1.5% average block chance. Good luck getting the 800+ defense rating to reach unhittable again, since it isn't possible in current gear.

So how the hell do you conclude that I'd have to downgrade to T7 in order to achieve the stats you mention? Sure with my current gear I wouldn't make it, but there's plenty of gear in the game better than what I currently have!

Except that most of the gear from T8+ raids contains no block rating, which is the most efficient way of reaching unhittable. Thus you have to do it through defense, which is the next most efficient way. And we've already seen that you need so much of it that it's unreasonable to reach.


Defense Rating provides a lot MORE Dodge / Parry / Miss combined than Dodge Rating provides Dodge (and let us not mention Agility).

No. It. Doesn't. Look back at the math I provided on page 2:
Theck Said: The difference there is .0021% avoidance, which means the dodge gem gives you 98% of the avoidance the defense gem does.

That is not "a lot more." It's barely noticeable. An agility gem will be around 83% the avoidance of the defense gem, but gives a significant amount of armor that offsets that for many purposes. You can't just ignore that fact, because it's very relevant in current content.

If in your opinion Block is not avoidance, then great, keep it to yourself, in my opinion it is avoidance and I will continue to use that term, especially since my use of that term applied to block has historical reasons, whereas your redefinitions has no reason at all.

I'm not interested in your opinion. Your opinion is worth nothing if it's demonstrably wrong, in the same sense that my opinion would be worthless if I insisted that the world was flat. Especially if my opinion hinged on redefining a well-agreed upon definition, because I said that "in my opinion a sphere counts as a planar surface, thus the world is flat."

If you can't consistently use the conventional definitions, then you have no place participating in a theorycrafting discussion (if that's even what anyone would call this abortion of a thread at this point). Nobody is going to take you seriously if you plan on redefining terms whenever it's convenient for your argument.

The numbers have been shown and confirmed by the person from maintankadin. It's mot my fault if you didn't read the thread. Everyone except for you apparently understands that Agility is a no-go stat unless your Dodge is already under heavy diminishing returns AND you are aiming for socket bonuses on red sockets (in which case Defense Rating is not an ideal option even though it outperforms Agility in every possible way). Remove either variable and Agility becomes a very poor stat.


Apparently you need to re-read the thread yourself, because my numbers do not support your hypothesis. I provided 1+1=2, and you're trying to say it supports 1+1=3. Math doesn't work that way, I'm afraid.


Honestly, you should just stop now. Your interpretation of tank gearing is blinded by your lack of end-game raid experience. You're touting how important your 2k block value is because all you see on a regular basis is heroics, where that's a huge amount of mitigation. Bosses in ICC hit for 20k, and hard modes hit for more. In your current set-up, you'll die if you get 2 consecutive unavoided attacks without a heal, even if you block both of them. That's very common in ICC raiding. And that's not counting environmental damage, dots, bleeds, and so forth.

Your 2k block value and unhittable won't save you from a 40k Soul Reaper (LK), Frost Breath (Sindragosa), or Frostbolt (Deathwhisper). It won't be as effective at reducing damage as armor and avoidance gearing would. It won't save you as many wipes from eating consecutive attacks as armor and stamina would. It just isn't an optimal gearing strategy for ICC, no matter how much you want it to be. If you're not going to do the math yourself, then at least read through and try and understand the math done by those of us who have, rather than discounting it because it doesn't support your hypothesis.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8000
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA


Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby theckhd » Tue May 04, 2010 8:56 am

Thanks. I probably wouldn't have bothered, but this whole "death in the family" thing has put me on edge and made me especially ornery today.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8000
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Tue May 04, 2010 9:12 am

theckhd wrote:Thanks. I probably wouldn't have bothered, but this whole "death in the family" thing has put me on edge and made me especially ornery today.

I'm very sorry to hear that Theck. :(
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest