Cataclysm: Rotations

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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:19 pm

theckhd wrote:They already want to cut our self-healing ability down (for both Ret and Prot), so giving us an instant-cast self-heal seems unintuitive.

:idea: :idea: :!:

Holy Shock goes baseline, but loses the heal component.

Deep Holy talent adds the heal back in.

FIXT.
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:48 pm

knaughty wrote:
theckhd wrote:They already want to cut our self-healing ability down (for both Ret and Prot), so giving us an instant-cast self-heal seems unintuitive.

:idea: :idea: :!:

Holy Shock goes baseline, but loses the heal component.

Deep Holy talent adds the heal back in.

FIXT.

Could be. Doesn't it still have a 15-second cooldown though? I honestly don't remember, it's been so long since I've specced holy. If it does, then at best it's an every other Cons substitution. Maybe alternate CS and HoSho for the missing Consecration spots.
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:01 am

theckhd wrote:Could be. Doesn't it still have a 15-second cooldown though?

Never been Holy, had to look it up back when I first posted. 6 sec CD.
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby Thels » Tue May 04, 2010 11:03 am

Of course it really depends on how the abilities will scale towards each other, and if the CD's remain the same.

However, they don't want the Paladin's baseline rotation to be so AoE heavy, which means either HotR or Consecration has to go (or both). Removing HotR doesn't feel right, considering how it's our end talent (though admittedly Warriors have an AoE ability as their end talent), and changing the values around so that CS beats Consecration for singletarget doesn't look too hard to do.

What I meant with Ret rotation being different is that Ret needs to worry a little about not getting all spells stuck on CD at the same time, which won't be an issue for Prot when Cata hits.

knaughty wrote:Never been Holy


So obviously a Blood Elf ;)
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby bldavis » Tue May 04, 2010 11:08 am

Thels wrote:Of course it really depends on how the abilities will scale towards each other, and if the CD's remain the same.

However, they don't want the Paladin's baseline rotation to be so AoE heavy, which means either HotR or Consecration has to go (or both). Removing HotR doesn't feel right, considering how it's our end talent (though admittedly Warriors have an AoE ability as their end talent), and changing the values around so that CS beats Consecration for singletarget doesn't look too hard to do.

What I meant with Ret rotation being different is that Ret needs to worry a little about not getting all spells stuck on CD at the same time, which won't be an issue for Prot when Cata hits.

knaughty wrote:Never been Holy


So obviously a Blood Elf ;)


whats that say about me? :?

oha nd i agree that ytaking out HoR from our rotation doesnt make a lot of sense, but switching cons to cs, that could work i likey that!
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby Raivnor » Tue May 04, 2010 1:59 pm

another possible fix for Holy Shock would be to have the targetenemy portion scale off atk pwr and have the targetfriend portion scale off only spell power. That way it would limit self healing for non healers but not require any of those 'throwaway talents' that Blizzard has been saying are bad just to make it a healing spell again.
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby knaughty » Tue May 04, 2010 4:02 pm

Thels wrote:
knaughty wrote:Never been Holy


So obviously a Blood Elf ;)

Never been Nubliance, either. :twisted:

Thus: Played a warlock in Classic and first half of TBC. Course, I vaz Herr Tankenlock!
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby Mert » Wed May 05, 2010 8:33 pm

I don't know if Holy Shock is quite the right thing for it but I must say I do quite like the idea of being able to occasionally generate threat through something other than doing damage. I never played a Paladin in Final Fantasy XI but I understand they basically tanked by being hit and healing themselves through the damage - I wouldn't want something nearly that extreme but I always feel like Paladins could use the whole Holy spells / The Light thing for more than just bashing stuff in the face. I've often felt like it'd be a nice way to differentiate Paladins from Warriors - the latter being the kind of berserker role where they're threatening because of their relentless assault on the target with the former being threatening because of his ability to control the Light as use it to the benefit of himself and others.

We're kind of half way there in a sense - Paladins give up a lot of the personal defensive "toolbox" stuff in favour of more raid-wide utility, but I'd like to see something along those kind of lines, for sure. As I say, Holy Shock looks to be the likely candidate and probably doesn't fit that well into what I have in my head but it could be an indication of going in that direction at least. It doesn't have to be a self-heal necessarily (and a Life Drain-type spell wouldn't fit the lore either) but since we still hold many of the hallmarks of being an excellent support class I personally think it'd be nice to be effective tanks by supporting our raid in various ways.

I kind of sense I might be in a minority here though and of course it'd be very hard to balance in fights with a tight berserk timer so it's unlikely to happen in the way I envisage but still, I'm not automatically averse to a self-heal as part of our rotation I guess.
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby Thels » Thu May 06, 2010 6:38 am

bldavis wrote:
Thels wrote:
knaughty wrote:Never been Holy


So obviously a Blood Elf ;)


whats that say about me? :?


It's just a joke. Obviously, the Protection tree was so broken back in the old days, as was Retribution for PvE, that any Paladin that wanted to raid had to spec Holy. Since Blood Elves weren't available until TBC, where the Protection tree was doing a lot better already (though it was still quite weaker than a Warrior or Feral tank in general), Blood Elves/Draenei never were forced to go Holy as much as the original Vanilla Paladins were. Of course, anyone could've leveled a Human or Dwarf Paladin after TBC came out, so it's not exactly based on rocket science ;)

Tanks actively selfhealing (as in, applying enough healing to oneself to bring a healer less, or at least reduce the burden on the healers) would be quite imbalanced imho. I'm not sure if Selfshocking is going to be viable, but at least it provides us with another ranged ability for picking up mobs, or perhaps rangetanking like Rotface adds. It might also come in handy in situations where you really don't want to cleave, such as CC heavy situations. By replacing HotR and Consecration by HShock and CS, you could perhaps spam only single target abilities without dropping CDs, which could be nice.
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby bldavis » Thu May 06, 2010 11:07 am

Thels wrote:
bldavis wrote:whats that say about me? :?


It's just a joke. Obviously, the Protection tree was so broken back in the old days, as was Retribution for PvE, that any Paladin that wanted to raid had to spec Holy. Since Blood Elves weren't available until TBC, where the Protection tree was doing a lot better already (though it was still quite weaker than a Warrior or Feral tank in general), Blood Elves/Draenei never were forced to go Holy as much as the original Vanilla Paladins were. Of course, anyone could've leveled a Human or Dwarf Paladin after TBC came out, so it's not exactly based on rocket science ;)

Tanks actively selfhealing (as in, applying enough healing to oneself to bring a healer less, or at least reduce the burden on the healers) would be quite imbalanced imho. I'm not sure if Selfshocking is going to be viable, but at least it provides us with another ranged ability for picking up mobs, or perhaps rangetanking like Rotface adds. It might also come in handy in situations where you really don't want to cleave, such as CC heavy situations. By replacing HotR and Consecration by HShock and CS, you could perhaps spam only single target abilities without dropping CDs, which could be nice.


i was being a smart ass, and i have never been holy (unless you count my priest)

with blizz hinting that they want cc to be part of the game again, and them wanting pallys to have seperate single-target and mutli-target rotations, i can easily see us dropping our main aoe threat builders, and getting our new baseline skills as single-target

and also for the healing part of holyshock, maybe its unlocked via mastery? i could be way off base there but...
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby Sabindeus » Tue May 11, 2010 8:27 am

I strongly suspect that Sheathe of Light and Touched By The Light will lose their Spellpower conversions, and Holy Shock will heal for about 600 or so, making it not worth it.
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby bldavis » Tue May 11, 2010 10:45 am

Sabindeus wrote:I strongly suspect that Sheathe of Light and Touched By The Light will lose their Spellpower conversions, and Holy Shock will heal for about 600 or so, making it not worth it.

600 out of a 100k+ health pool.....
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby Karbitrage » Tue May 11, 2010 2:59 pm

Maybe Holy Shock doesn't have to be a self heal for Protection Paladins. Assuming it takes up a fairly frequent spot in the rotation, like once every 6 GCDs for example, it could be a short duration defensive cooldown. For example, deep prot could have a talent (glyph might be a great way too) to make holy shock reduce the damage taken by the player it is cast on by 4%, lasting 10 seconds. So the paladin casts it on himself once every 9 seconds in certain situations.

I think a fair design would be every 6 GCDs or so, at this specific spot in the rotation, the paladin has a choice of casting an offensive ability to generate threat on the target or cast holy shock on himself to reduce damage taken. This makes it perfect for situations like off-tanking or right before big damage spikes, when a threat lead is established. Note that always casting holy shock on one's self should make maintaining threat an issue against competitive dps, so that tanks have to make an active choice about situations in which to use holy shock.
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Re: Cataclysm: Rotations

Postby Thels » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:27 am

Well, since this thread was still fairly high on the list, I might as well necro it instead of starting a new one.

This is the build I'm currently using: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZGMhcRddkRucbG:oskmbqmMz

Currently, I'm using the following rotation:

- CS (or HotR against multiple targets)
- Judgement
- CS (or HotR against multiple targets)
- AS if available, HW if not
- CS (or HotR against multiple targets)
- SotR (or WoG if threat is good and healing is needed)
- Repeat from start.

If for some reason the skill I want to press is on CD, I substitute Consecration. If that is also on CD, I substitute SotR with 1 or 2 HP. As a clash rotation, it would come out as: 3 HP SotR > CS > Judgement > AS > HW > Consecration > 1/2 HP SotR

I think only 2 talents affect the rotation. Eternal Glory allows us to either pop an additional WoG when it procs, or pop SotR after all, which would negate the threat loss slightly. Since WoG imho is only popped when threat is good and healing is needed, I'd always pop a second WoG until the HP is gone. Then again, the healing result is minor, and I don't think the 2 talent points are worth it, so I didn't take it. I do have 1 point in GbtL as a filler so, in case I do feel the need to pop WoG, it's not countereffective by dropping Holy Shield.

The other is Grand Crusader which basically allows us to swap HW for AS every now and then. From what I understood it's a minor TPS increase without and a major TPS increase with the glyph that prevents it from bouncing. Right now threat is not much of an issue and I'm still farming the HCs for gear, so I won't take the glyph until later.

The thing that has me confused a little is Inquisition. Should this be anywhere in our rotation, or does it not make up for the additional ShoR every now and then. Currently, I only use it on the pull:

- Divine Plea
- Inquisition
- Avenging Wrath
- Exorcism
- Hand of Reckoning
- AS
- CS if within range, Judgement if not
- Start normal rotation

Inquisition gives me a slight lead in threat and allows Holy Shield to be up in case the boss melees me first. Would it be more worthwhile to save the 3 HP and start by smashing the boss with my shield instead of CS?

Oh, and for big packs I go:
- HW
- Conseration
- HotR
- AS
- HotR
- Start normal rotation


EDIT: Should've known there was a MATLAB for 4.0 out. I guess it'll answer my questions :)
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