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Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Meloree » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:08 am

Kelthizan wrote:(I made this account to post this seemingly obvious reply)

Boyfriend wrote:Obvious fix, Deathwing's Burning Sensation: Increases the cost of all healing spells by 50%


You got beaten to the punch by a couple of days.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:14 am

theckhd wrote:Not to mention that the avoidance inflation issue would still be a problem. Even if the design path was:
Code: Select all
Naxx:     200/213 
Ulduar:   213/226  (actual: 219/226/232/239 for hard modes)
ToC:      226/239  (actual: 232/245/258)
Icecrown: 239/245  (actual: 251/264/277)


The high-avoidance problem was already manifesting itself at the 232/245 level of ToC. Maybe that's OK for the last raid instance, but it's still cutting it pretty close.

As an aside, I really liked the Ulduar system better. It was a little more confusing, but the ilvl span was smaller since there was only a 7-ilvl difference between 10-man and 25-man normal mode loot. The return to 13 ilvls between 10- and 25-man along with the 13 ilvl jump to heroic mode loot made the gear discrepancy between 10-man and 25-man raiders far more apparent.

I think that a 219/226 baseline with 226/232 hard mode loot would have been a better thing for 10-man raiders, even if it did mean the heroic modes weren't as attractive. The bump up to 232 weapons/shields didn't help either.

They claim otherwise but as I've said many times, on this issue, they are full of crap. We even had a thread about it near the end of Naxx on how avoidance was too high and Sunwell Radiance would be needed. I seem to remember two nerfs to avoidance as well, but can only find one in the patch notes, and that was when they increased the amount of dodge rating it took to get 1% dodge to be more inline with parry, but left the harsher DR on parry, which ultimately meant you just lost a little dodge. I'm not sure if I'm wrong about there being another little nerf, or if it just didn't make the patch notes.

Anyhow, we were flirting with 60% avoidance at the end of Naxx. DKs were comfortably in the 60s though class nerfs did pull that back down, but even without heroic loot, it is quite clear that Chill of the Throne was inevitable from day 1.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Kelthizan » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:17 pm

Meloree wrote:
Kelthizan wrote:(I made this account to post this seemingly obvious reply)

Boyfriend wrote:Obvious fix, Deathwing's Burning Sensation: Increases the cost of all healing spells by 50%


You got beaten to the punch by a couple of days.


I'll take myself outside and shoot myself now.

I can put down plastic sheeting too to help with the mess if you like :/
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Meloree » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:30 pm

Kelthizan wrote:
Meloree wrote:
Kelthizan wrote:(I made this account to post this seemingly obvious reply)

Boyfriend wrote:Obvious fix, Deathwing's Burning Sensation: Increases the cost of all healing spells by 50%


You got beaten to the punch by a couple of days.


I'll take myself outside and shoot myself now.

I can put down plastic sheeting too to help with the mess if you like :/


Welcome to Maintankadin :)
Meloree
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Suzytincan » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:12 am

Based on the original post, this seemed like the right thread for this, but this thread has since become a debate on the fast/middle/big heal concept. Feel free to move or ignore it if you prefer.

Regarding the armor/stam/block topic, I'm really looking forward to the initial TTL theorycrafting once we know what they are doing with the def/bv/br on current gear and the scaling on block. With a flat 30%+ reduction in physical damage, it'll be interesting if some of the lower tier gear currently available will end up being more EH thanks to it's emphasis on block.

As others have stated, this will depend a lot on how close we are to 102.4% (too far from that and you could get screwed by RNG pretty easily), but the potential exists for Naxx gear to start edging out some of it's higher level competitors.

Block rating is currently cheap, but I'm guessing that will change.


Too lazy to fix sig.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Meloree » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:04 am

Suzytincan wrote:As others have stated, this will depend a lot on how close we are to 102.4% (too far from that and you could get screwed by RNG pretty easily), but the potential exists for Naxx gear to start edging out some of it's higher level competitors.

Block rating is currently cheap, but I'm guessing that will change.


The reason the topic devolved into healing is because boss output and healing are the two inputs into any tank gearing question. If Blizzard really does make every boss a damage throughput vs. healing throughput check with no burstiness, we'll be stacking stats with a preference on whichever lowers DTPS by the most given our current gear. Reliability won't be as critical as it is now, because over long enough timeframes, RNG evens out. Good healers will be cancel-casting even their efficient heals for maximum mana longevity. In a situation like this, if Block is 30% as effective as dodge for reducing DTPS, and it's cheaper than 30% of the item budget, you'll want to stack it, given the choice - but it's still highly unlikely that any amount of block on gear would outweigh the enormous ilvl advantages from Naxx to Ulduar.

In a more reasonable scenario - damage is a little slower than now, but bosses are still bursty. Healers are spamming efficient heals and reactively upranking - parry might be the best stat we can have for effectively increasing healer mana pool. 50% not just on this hit but on the one after is exceedingly powerful while there's still some burst risk. Even if that next 50% might get "eaten" by a dodge, a parry effectively guarantees smoothness that won't cause healer upranking.

If hardmodes end up being tuned more like they are now - with heavy hitting high-attack-speed bosses with high burst potential relative to tank health-pool - not much will change. Healers will have to find a way to spam max-HPS all the time. We'll gear stamina and effective health to give them a fighting chance at keeping us up.
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