Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Dendrah » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:37 am

As far as I have seen they plan for healers to use their medium heals most of the time in T11 while the better their gear gets the more regen they get and the more fast expensive small heals or slow expensive large heals they can do.

Basicly they go from 1 healing spell (the efficient one), with a rare fast or big heal, to 2 healing spells (fast and big one) with a "I don't have much to do so I'll cast this on the next probable damage instead of being idle"-filler.

The scaling in gear will make sure this shift from one spell set to the other will happen at the point in higher tiers where we need more HPS and HPM is less of a problem.

Back in Naxx we could survive long enough to iron man rivendare remember? Now in ICC a priest casting greater heal will know he's to late for anything. Shamans stack haste to make their CH fast enough to react to the incoming damage. They have to since damage is coming to fast and to big to do anything else then react within 2 seconds.

I'm not worried about getting the HPS vs HPM balance correct.
I'm more worried when healers will come up with highly stacked crit/hast/SP so that they can endlessly spam their efficient heal that now goes for almost as much as their big heal but almost as fast as their fast heal...
If they solve this issue as well they risk having 3 healing classes with identical healing spells...
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby hoho » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:48 am

Boyfriend wrote:I think the crux of the problem lies in the fact that heals cost a static amount of mana, yet your mana regen increases;
Technically you could say that mana required to keep tank alive does increase but its in the form of tank HP increase. Though obviously this only works if tank HP increases faster than healer throughput. With pure regen stacking it might happen, more balanced gearing for healers should make their heals grow roughly at same pace as tank HP.
Dendrah wrote:I'm not worried about getting the HPS vs HPM balance correct.
I'm more worried when healers will come up with highly stacked crit/hast/SP so that they can endlessly spam their efficient heal that now goes for almost as much as their big heal but almost as fast as their fast heal...
Basically you are afraid of everyone turning into FoL paladins. How well do they work on harder content vs HL ones?
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Boyfriend » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:13 am

hoho wrote:
Boyfriend wrote:I think the crux of the problem lies in the fact that heals cost a static amount of mana, yet your mana regen increases;
Technically you could say that mana required to keep tank alive does increase but its in the form of tank HP increase. Though obviously this only works if tank HP increases faster than healer throughput. With pure regen stacking it might happen, more balanced gearing for healers should make their heals grow roughly at same pace as tank HP


Mana used for healing only changes if you use different heals.

5 Times Heal 1, 3 Times Heal 2 and 10 Times Heal 3 will always cost the same amount of mana.

Thus as long as you don't change what heals you use your mana use is constant.

If you are using all your heals roughly equally, and don't spend time doing nothing (Blizzards ideal) at Gear level X; then because mana use only changes from changing what heals you use at any other Gear level than X you are no longer balanced with Blizzards ideal.

If you start off with having only enough mana regen to ever cast your most efficient heal.
This is boring to play.
As your mana regen increases healing complexity increases until you have to decide between all your heals everytime you heal, this is the optimal situation.
Once you get even more mana regen you will stop using the most efficient heals, as there is less and less benefit to saving mana.

As you can see the 'curve' of healing complexity based on Mana Regen increases up to a point and then drops off again. Thus healing being 'interesting' can only be balanced around a single level of gear, the only way to keep it interesting at other levels is to make the curve flat, BUT if the curve is flat then that automatically means that mana regen on gear is relatively irrelevant as it has no effect on your healing.

You CANT have mana regen both be an interesting stat on gear and have all heals be useful at all gear levels.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby hoho » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:27 am

Boyfriend wrote:Mana used for healing only changes if you use different heals.

5 Times Heal 1, 3 Times Heal 2 and 10 Times Heal 3 will always cost the same amount of mana.

Thus as long as you don't change what heals you use your mana use is constant.
True but if your tank will need extra/bigger heal to be topped off after a hit in a new tier then you will be spending more mana. Only problem will be, as I said, if heals will scale in strength as much (or more) than tank HP.

E.g if tanks start at 100k hp with boss hitting them for 20k every 2s healers can keep them up spamming 20k heals. If in next tier tanks have 120k hp, bosses hit for 25k and heals land at 25k then healers can keep on using exact same heals as before. If heals are only 22k they will need to cast bigger ones a bit more often than before. Similar thing can be achieved by increasing boss hit sizes but eventually it would lead us to where we are atm where healers must top tanks off in 1-2s or tanks would die.
Last edited by hoho on Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Dendrah » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:27 am

I think they'll scale from 80% efficient heal to 20% efficient heal. Stopping to use the efficient heal would be when gear scaling is not thought of well. They don't have to go from 100% to 0%. That would indeed be bad. 80% to 20% would be nicer.

People then stacking regen so they can drop the fficient heal will see a lack in power in their other heals. Remember that overhealing will be almost non existing in Cat.

Also game mechanics and tank gear would be diffirent in the higher tiers then in the lower and as such demanding other heal usage. Spam big heals on incinerate flesh while you need the uber fast ones for the soul steal on LK.
Dreamwalker mechanics ask for HPS and lots of it. General Vessax was HPM all the way.

If you keep everything else level then indeed you can only balance your healing mix around 1 specific gear lvl. But that's the beauty of it. The rest doesn't stay level. On the contrary. It will demand you to scale in your gear to keep up with the bigger and more critting efficient heals, more and bigger fast heals and more and faster big heals.

I rememeber reading something in the ternd of: We want you to not be able to top of your tank with only efficient heals. You'll need a big or fast one to achief that. In other words our HP will drops slowly when ony healed with efficient heals. A big one every now and then will keep us alive in the long run. How often will be defined by tank gear and incoming damage and scaling of healer gear and...
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Boyfriend » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:39 am

hoho wrote:
Boyfriend wrote:Mana used for healing only changes if you use different heals.

5 Times Heal 1, 3 Times Heal 2 and 10 Times Heal 3 will always cost the same amount of mana.

Thus as long as you don't change what heals you use your mana use is constant.
True but if your tank will need extra/bigger heal to be topped off after a hit in a new tier then you will be spending more mana. Only problem will be, as I said, if heals will scale in strength as much (or more) than tank HP.

E.g if tanks start at 100k hp with boss hitting them for 20k every 2s healers can keep them up spamming 20k heals. If in next tier tanks have 120k hp, bosses hit for 25k and heals land at 25k then healers can keep on using exact same heals as before. If heals are only 22k they will need to cast bigger ones a bit more often than before. Similar thing can be achieved by increasing boss hit sizes but eventually it would lead us to where we are atm where healers must top tanks off in 1-2s or tanks would die.


You seem to disagree, yet make exactly the point I'm trying to make; if healers use different heals, then they use different heals but we WANT them to keep using the same heals. The goal is to have healers use all heals at all gearlevels. If healers have to cast bigger heals more often, and then more often again and more often again, we will fairly quickly get to the point where they will not use small heals at all anymore.

Using only 2 heals for an example:

Level 85 Greens: 20% Inefficient Heal, 80% Efficient Heal
Tier 11: 40% Inefficient Heal, 60% Efficient Heal
Tier 15: 80% Inefficient Heal, 20% Efficient Heal

now, this looks nice but it kind of walks into the problem that you'll also want healers to decide which gear to use so you'll have to allow them to 'stack' regen.
Now that Tier 15 dude, if he stacks regen I can be sure he can get to 100% Inefficient Heal. Because that is EXACTLY what we have in wotlk now, Paladins stack only mana regen and nothing else just so they CAN get to that 100% Inefficient Heal usage, and I'm pretty sure as a holy paladin only wearing greens you are not able to use very much holy light at level 80. My prediction is that in Tier 15 things will be exactly as they are now.

[edit: Obvious fix, Deathwing's Burning Sensation: Increases the cost of all healing spells by 50%]
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby hoho » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:52 am

Boyfriend wrote:You seem to disagree, yet make exactly the point I'm trying to make; if healers use different heals, then they use different heals but we WANT them to keep using the same heals.
I was trying to say that higher regen can be balanced out by needing to cast inefficient heals more often but not make them the ONLY spells they use.
Boyfriend wrote:The goal is to have healers use all heals at all gearlevels. If healers have to cast bigger heals more often, and then more often again and more often again, we will fairly quickly get to the point where they will not use small heals at all anymore.
Technically true. We just have to hope blizzard can balance things right so that it won't come to this. One way to achieve this would be to have some kind of phases with higher and lower damage done on tanks. Not the best way but better than current system where paladins spam HL no matter what.
Boyfriend wrote:now, this looks nice but it kind of walks into the problem that you'll also want healers to decide which gear to use so you'll have to allow them to 'stack' regen.
Now that Tier 15 dude, if he stacks regen I can be sure he can get to 100% Inefficient Heal.
That's definitely possible. One theoretical way to counter that would be to make the efficient spells scale better or make them truly inefficient and non-spammable at all gear levels. That way sacrificing spellpower for regen will mean bigger heals won't really be all that effective while with more balanced gearing they could keep on using all their abilities.


I'm fairly certain it is possible to make all the numbers scale so that pure regen gearing is not viable while a mix of heals is the preferred way of healing at all levels. It's a bitch to balance right, no doubt about that. Especially considering the differences of different healers or even tanks they heal.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Boyfriend » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:05 am

I think it's a pretty impossible balance, also considering that there could very well be a boss or bosses that 'enrage' in which case it could very quickly become 'spam small while not enraged' and 'spam big while enraged' which really is not interesting either.

Also I'm considering that they had exactly the same goals for wotlk and failed miserably, so I think it's fair to be sceptical that the relatively minor planned changes will actually achieve their goal when they could not for wotlk. (Never again Sunwell Radiance my ass) I mean yes they are going a bit farther by greatly slashing down on mana regen but will it be enough?
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby hoho » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:19 am

Boyfriend wrote:Also I'm considering that they had exactly the same goals for wotlk and failed miserably
True but the main reason for the failure was huge boost to stats on gear after most of the balancing work was done. The boost of stats also blew up tank avoidance and burst in pvp.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Boyfriend » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:36 am

Who's to say something similar won't happen again, you're not really fixing a problem if you just hope the same mistake won't happen again.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby hoho » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:43 am

Boyfriend wrote:Who's to say something similar won't happen again
It happened in WotLK because they added hardmodes and extra ilvls very late in design and balancing process. They have said multiple times that originally LK should have dropped significantly lower ilvl gear than it does now. Think closer to toc normal level.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Boyfriend » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:49 am

I am aware of that, but:

Maybe cataclysm will need an additional raid tier inserted at some point due to development issues.
Maybe they decide to remove hard modes due to bad feedback (oops?)
Maybe they'll have to increase item scaling because the differencce between ilevel 2350 and ilevel 2363 gear is too small.

There's alot of other reasons why they might have exactly the same issue again, just saying in wotlk they had hardmodes added, now they won't thus it won't be a problem and they don't have to change anything seems a bit short sighted.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Meloree » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:45 am

hoho wrote:
Boyfriend wrote:Also I'm considering that they had exactly the same goals for wotlk and failed miserably
True but the main reason for the failure was huge boost to stats on gear after most of the balancing work was done. The boost of stats also blew up tank avoidance and burst in pvp.


No. Mana was functionally unlimited in Naxx gear. That's long before the stat inflation. Blizzard might THINK that extra ilvls was the problem, but they would be wrong. They've been nerfing mana regen all expansion just to keep up, but they've stayed behind the curve/
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:05 am

Not to mention that the avoidance inflation issue would still be a problem. Even if the design path was:
Code: Select all
Naxx:     200/213 
Ulduar:   213/226  (actual: 219/226/232/239 for hard modes)
ToC:      226/239  (actual: 232/245/258)
Icecrown: 239/245  (actual: 251/264/277)


The high-avoidance problem was already manifesting itself at the 232/245 level of ToC. Maybe that's OK for the last raid instance, but it's still cutting it pretty close.

As an aside, I really liked the Ulduar system better. It was a little more confusing, but the ilvl span was smaller since there was only a 7-ilvl difference between 10-man and 25-man normal mode loot. The return to 13 ilvls between 10- and 25-man along with the 13 ilvl jump to heroic mode loot made the gear discrepancy between 10-man and 25-man raiders far more apparent.

I think that a 219/226 baseline with 226/232 hard mode loot would have been a better thing for 10-man raiders, even if it did mean the heroic modes weren't as attractive. The bump up to 232 weapons/shields didn't help either.
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Re: Cataclysm and armor/avoidance/block

Postby Kelthizan » Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:34 am

(I made this account to post this seemingly obvious reply)

I guess what you'd need is a scaling debuff each tier then.

"all heals cost 5% extra" for say tier 12 content

"all heals cost 10% extra" for tier 13 content

(numbers are arbitrary)

then you could balance the mana regen issue for the first tier, but not have the problem that in later tiers you don't need to worry about which heal you select (as boyfriend was saying).

It is a bit artificial but perfunctory. Because I'm not sure that there is a more elegant solution
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