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Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:36 am

Meloree wrote:For reference, I typically run ~20-40ms of latency, which probably colours my outlook.

I hate you, and all who sail in you.

Not really.

My jitter is bigger than your ping :evil: Even if I'm using latency tracking mod I wouldn't be able to match your cast accuracy.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:43 am

Boyfriend wrote:For me the issue simply is that in many situations we rely on tricks/MD for threat.

If we have 3 hunters in-raid instead of 1, my focus changes completely. This is bad design.
Boyfriend wrote:The tank should have to chose between gearing/speccing for threat or survivability and it should be a choice.

I don’t agree with this one. EH vs Avoidance is interesting. If I have to wear DPS legs so I can do enough threat for a particular encounter, my TPS is too low.
Boyfriend wrote:Right now it is... you can basically ignore threat and have tricks/MD patch up your problems for you. Ofcourse without tricks/MD we need options to improve our tps aswell but ultimately I think for tank threat generation only the tank should be responsible and noone else.

Easy fix: Remove threat transfer abilities, massively nerf their treat multiplier, or have them apply a small fixed amount of threat (like 2k). Then fix tank DPS so it isn’t an issue.

I’m cool with a hunter generating enough threat on a new add to have it wander over to me, and then I’m responsible for tanking it. Being a key part of my tanking rotation is not OK.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Boyfriend » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:56 am

knaughty wrote:I don’t agree with this one. EH vs Avoidance is interesting. If I have to wear DPS legs so I can do enough threat for a particular encounter, my TPS is too low.


While I don't think EH vs. Avoidance being interesting what I meant is that currently you can completely ignore threat, only take survivability talents, there is no downside; and you do this for hard fights like LK-hc because you can rely on Tricks/MD picking up the slack for you.

I am sure if the LK would parry haste then the solution would be to have tanks stop attacking him and rely completely on MD/tricks for threat, noone would consider expertise capping since it would come at the cost of survivability and threat can be completely taken care of by others.

Ultimately gear and spec choices should have a meaningful difference on your ability to tank, the current tricks/MD situation turns all paladin threat talent into optional gimmicks that we only take so rogues can tricks eachother for a minor dps increase.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Meloree » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:01 am

I dunno, I get MDs for sure (1 or 2 hunters always in raid) at pull, and almost never during the fight unless there's a threat-drop. I typically get the first round of tricks, and then they all go to DPS. Often we'll let the afflocks grab the first tricks to roll Corruption with their pre-pots. It is very very rare that someone is over 100% threat. When it happens, it's a Warlock or Mage, and they pop their threat-drop and never catch up again. Even then, it's only with heroism on pull that they stand much of a chance. Even the hunters generally get away with one FD.

I'm just not seeing the problem with tank threat. It hasn't scaled, but we're still ahead of DPS while in full survivability gear for sustained threat. Snap threat is handled with MD/Tricks, and that's the way it's been done for all of WotLK. You tricks the tank so nobody has to "wait for Sunders". If your rogues and hunters are "forgetting" then that's a different issue to address. But unless you want to gear for max hit/expertise, then threat transfers are a necessary consequence of your gear choices.

I'll grant that my experience is probably tained by 40ms of latency, and being able to absolutely rely on multiple threat-transfers on pull. I think threat-transfers are better design than "wait for sunders", and I think threat-transfers are a necessary consequence of "can-miss" abilities for snap-threat. I don't think that high-threat always-hit abilities would be good game design, either.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Boyfriend » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:13 am

There are no Threat issues when the tank is specced into Threat talents, my issue is that you can drop all threat talents and tank through threat transfer.

The only reason this is not happening all the time is because there are no ICC-25 bosses with tank survivability issues except LK-25 Hc.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby hoho » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:47 am

knaughty wrote:Did a quick check of Theck’s thread – our theorycraft TPS is 9-10k.

ICC DPS can push 12-13k, and some specs have minimal threat reduction in their standard build (Hiya, Shadow + locks!).

Ta-da – our TPS is too low.
Just FYI, normal spriests have 30% built-in threat reduction, MANY who have 4pt10 and/or use pvp-ish spec have talented extra 8-24%. Only problem is our VE healing but even if it's zero overhealing and there is only one mob we generate at best ~22.6% extra threat from healing. So at 10k DPS we'd do something like 7k threat from DPS without the extra talents and ~1.7k from healing. In reality VE has roughly 60-70% overhealing even on the damage aura fights greatly reducing the threat it produces.

Though for whatever reason I still seem to have the greatest threat problems of pretty much everyone on our raid, especially on the evil spirits. Apparently spending 3GCDs before any damage occurs is good enough to pull agro :(
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:30 am

hoho wrote:Just FYI, normal spriests have 30% built-in threat reduction

My ones don't, they take DPS/utility talents instead.

Pretty much none of my DPS take threat reduction talents unless the talent offers some other benefit. I had assumed this was normal - I haven't played DPS since Tier-5...

Of course, this may be another reason my experience is different to other tanks.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Anorian » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:45 am

Tbh ever since icecrown, and maybe even late ToC I noticed a drop in threat relative to the dps. Especially with the BiS ICC gear having so little hit/expertise I was struggling with threat alot lately. Swapped some pieces and got the tier gloves to bump my hit to 6% and expertise softcap and I'm hovering around 10k again. Pickups, for example raging spirits on LK, I still want tricks. Paladin threat ain't what it used to be.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby hoho » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:50 am

knaughty wrote:
hoho wrote:Just FYI, normal spriests have 30% built-in threat reduction

My ones don't, they take DPS/utility talents instead.
They skip shadowform?

Also, after filling every single DPS increasing talent there will be around 5 points left over for regen and utility. With 4pt10 it's kind of hard to skip at least one point in that extra threat reduction talent after getting every possible mana savings talent+physic horror.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:10 am

I play with 300ms of latency regularly, sometimes spiking up to 500-600 or worse depending on what my fiancee is doing on her computer. It really doesn't effect our rotation much at all at the low levels, since you can queue the next spell during your enormous latency window on Quartz.

Once it creeps up to 800ms or more it can start causing problems though, as you occasionally spike high enough that you can't queue for the next GCD because you're still waiting on the previously queued spell to start.

I generally pop wings on the pull and get a Misdirect, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary unless the DPS attacks the boss the very second it comes in range. They're mostly a buffer against miss/parry RNG and bad luck. If your DPS gives you 2 or 3 seconds before hitting with their big guns (i.e. put up DoTs and debuffs during the first two GCDs), you're unlikely to run into serious problems.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Meloree » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:09 am

knaughty wrote:
hoho wrote:Just FYI, normal spriests have 30% built-in threat reduction

My ones don't, they take DPS/utility talents instead.

Pretty much none of my DPS take threat reduction talents unless the talent offers some other benefit. I had assumed this was normal - I haven't played DPS since Tier-5...

Of course, this may be another reason my experience is different to other tanks.


Your experience here is normal. DPS don't talent threat reduction without another benefit. Shadowform has built-in 30% threat reduction though, and it's kind of a staple of "shadow priest".
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby beornus » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:47 am

I haven't had problems with Mages or Spriests but 'Locks have been a bear for me to keep aggro from. Our tanks pretty much out-gear our DPS and heals except for a Lock, Boomkin and DK, but the Lock is the only one who regularly rips a mob off me.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Halnoth » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:14 pm

I think what everyone is forgetting here is Blizzards goal of removing most if not all of the % increase talents. All of you guys are putting this into WotLK terms. We may need this AP buff if they take all of our +dmg abilities away.

Think about it, no more expertise from talents, no more +dmg and crit talents from ret, and no more 1h weapon specialization.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Dantriges » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:30 pm

I wonder what this cool stuff is, Blizzard is talking about, I will use my 76 talent points for in Cataclysm.

And at the moment I feel like Knaughty, paladin threat isn´t what it used to be. MD and stuff like that can cover it but my hunters don´t "waste their time for MD" aka lazy and the rogues ttot each other of course.

Yeah and locks are crazy threat machines.

And every time I am on my DK, I get angry because of this cheap IT hack Blizzard used to solve their problems.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby balloonknot » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:25 pm

For reference we're 8/12 in 25HM, dps are usually around 12k on average and i'm in all 264 with a few 277 pieces.

We usually have 2 hunters and 2 rogues, normally they tricks on the pull and then don't for the rest of the fight. There are some exceptions like dreamwalker adds. I don't really see a threat problem when tanking, i usually have enough of a lead to use the salv glyph safely.

The hunters/locks/mages do use their threat dumps usually 35% into the fight or so but no one else is even close. I don't think classes with minimal or no threat reduction using their threat dump is a problem with tank threat, i think they were designed with those capabilities for a reason.

The only places i get annoyed are:

phase 2 and 3 LK. I tank the entire time and our warrior intervene's on soul reaper, the threat drop builds up such that i'm walking the threat line by the end of the fight and have to have tricks/MD to maintain agro. I'm not entirely sure why they choose that strategy, mostly for the safety of the healers not changing targets and the good old AD proc safety margin i guess.

Fights with early tank swaps, saurfang on the first swap. After i taunt if our warrior crits a shield slam then s&b procs into another crit he can pull back in no time but we're both well ahead of the dps.

Initial agro without tricks/MD is basically impossible with double potting mages in raid.

As others said i think it comes down to the intelligence of your dps, assuming your threat isn't silly low then its really their fault if they're doing something dumb (hunter pulling without using FD).

I honestly think it would be boring if threat were a complete non-issue. I already can't stand tanking on my warrior, i'm always looking for something to do. At least as a pally I can provide raid support, bubble wall, dispell, timing LoH to save a raid death, etc.
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